Electoral College certification stopped!

[SkankinMonkey]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/...vote/index.html

http://michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=864 (the AP story is here, most recent)

holla back at pwning corrupt elections.

 

[ExCyber]

Well, it's good to see that Congress isn't totally blowing off the Ohio problems, at least. Whether or not anything actually gets done about it remains to be seen. <_<

 

[Parn]

So how come states like Pennsylvania which had similar voter issues, aren't at the focus of attention like Ohio?

Let's see if we can answer this one.

 

[Alexvrb]

Originally posted by Parn@Thu, 2005-01-06 @ 10:46 PM

So how come states like Pennsylvania which had similar voter issues, aren't at the focus of attention like Ohio?

Let's see if we can answer this one.

Because fuck ya, that's why. Apparently. :/ In other words, they just "want to make sure every vote counts" but only in states where they might stand a chance of overturning the election. That's how it always works.

Edit: snapback annoys me... at least the way it always is placed.

 

[ExCyber]

Anyone have some links for the Pennsylvania situation?

In other words, they just "want to make sure every vote counts" but only in states where they might stand a chance of overturning the election.

Except that there isn't such a chance in Ohio by all accounts I've heard.

 

[IceDigger]

From the news here some of the philly machines had over a couple thousand votes on them before the places even opened.

 

[schi0249]

Cool, maybe the spirts of our forfather were voting.

 

[Mr. Moustache]

Democrats are only going to investigate in places that are heavily democratic or normally democratic. That's just the way it is, Republicans complain about voting irregularities too, and if they were to investigate they would do it the same way... It's the way the system works unfortunately.

 

[SkankinMonkey]

The Ohio issues were originally brought up by the Green and Libertarian parties.

The recount in Ohio was also really fucked up. Either 3 or 8% (can't remember the number) of the counties were recounted. Not 100. And the recount wasn't even done at random (like legally required), it was hand picked (by a republican official) areas that were recounted.

Thing is, even in the areas recounted, there was a significant amount of errors.

And no, the recount wasn't about changing the outcome of the election, it was about fixing this fucked up voting process that's obviously flawed and lends itself to corruption.

Democrat or Republican, it's still wrong, stupid bipartisanship won't recognize that though.

 

[Mr. Moustache]

Well.. to be perfectly fair I can tell you that the even though there are voting irregularities this time I can guarantee you without a shadow of a doubt that they were 100 times worse in 2000. The difference this year is that we expected them, the media had the idea of stories in their heads before the election even took place. And across the board approx. 5-9% of all the voting had errors or irregularities in them, and about 1% of the vote didn't get counted at all. It could be from voter suppression, intimidation, long lines... or maybe it's just the fact that no system is perfect, and while we should strive to make it better next time, and then the time after that and so on, we need to move on for now and worry about something else. George Bush is going to be President for anothr 4years, get over it.

 

[ExCyber]

while we should strive to make it better next time, and then the time after that and so on, we need to move on for now and worry about something else

Uh... what? We should strive to make it better, but move on and don't worry about it? :huh

George Bush is going to be President for anothr 4years, get over it.

Knocking over strawmen is oddly satisfying, but ultimately hollow. Kind of like voting in a broken system. <_<

 

[Mr. Moustache]

Look, I'm not saying we don't need investigate the whole thing... but the way it is being done now is all very silly and insignifigant. A few liberals complaining about the vote in one state, mostly in democratic counties is really just partisan bias and holding out hope that maybe, just maybe, even though they won't say it... that Kerry somehow pulled one out of his ass.

If we're going to improve the voting system we need to do a wide sweeping independent review and have them tell us what needs done. Cause partisan bickering won't do anything except put the real business of the country on the backburner.

And just so ya know, I'm a former Dean-iac who voted for Nader. And even though I didn't vote for him I was hoping Kerry would win.

 

[ExCyber]

A few liberals

I think you need to read up on Michael Badnarik's policy positions sometime.

holding out hope that maybe, just maybe, even though they won't say it... that Kerry somehow pulled one out of his ass

They won't say it because there is no evidence of an error margin wide enough to make it happen. Initially there was a very remote chance that it could be overturned, and that quickly vanished.

If we're going to improve the voting system we need to do a wide sweeping independent review and have them tell us what needs done. Cause partisan bickering won't do anything except put the real business of the country on the backburner.

No. No "them". We need to figure out what the hell we want and make it happen, because the system that exists now is heavily wired for bureaucratic and partisan self-preservation. In any case, I'm sure some fraction of the Ohio situation is just sore-loserism, but I think it's mostly that Ohio had more eyes on it than any other state, being a late swing state with a decisive number of electoral votes. And even if only Ohio is studied seriously, it seems unlikely that the problems discovered and solutions suggested will be unique to Ohio alone; all the states are basically trying to solve the same problem here, and mostly use similar methods. That being the case, and it being the case that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are largely interested in truly increasing the quality of representation, I'm willing to take whatever they're giving away in the way of political capital toward dissecting problems with our current system. I just hope someone can take the ball and really run with it instead of pretending that there are no problems to speak of.

 

[Mr. Moustache]

Well coming to a general consensus without some sort of independent investigation is next to impossible...

And I know the Liberterian platform well enough to know what Michael Badnarik stands for. And I can probably assume that even though he hated both canidates that he would have rather seen Kerry win. But that's almost besides the point, he wasn't in the halls of congress debating over ratifyng the vote.

Our voting system is flawed, but certainly not broken. We need sweeping change across the board, but we need some sort of consensus on what that change is going to be. And neither Republicans or Democrats will be able to decide that without someone besides moveon.org and the conservative coalition sending out petitions.

Real change comes from action not debate, and right now all I'm seeing/hearing is debate.

 

[SkankinMonkey]

Originally posted by Mr. Moustache@Mon, 2005-01-10 @ 01:00 AM

But that's almost besides the point, he wasn't in the halls of congress debating over ratifyng the vote.

[post=127455]Quoted post[/post]​

That's generally because only congressmen and senators could debate during that process. I'm sure he, and thousands of others, would be foaming at the mouth to get this issue put on TV and talked about.

Our voting system is flawed, but certainly not broken.

Yea, tell that to Florida in the 2000 election.

Also, the general theory is, in a democracy everyone has a say. If even one person lacks a voice in a vote, things are broken.

 

[Mr. Moustache]

Well, lets keep in mind that Florida was not a first time event.. if I recall it was the 3rd time in recent history that the popular vote and the electoral vote had 2 different results.

But whatever, they can debate it all they want.. I want something done. I don't feel like having some democrats moan about the vote in democratic counties is helping me in any way.

Compared to 2000 the voting irregularities that took place were not nearly as bad, but we need to come to some sort of consensus on how things are done, because right now everyone seems to have a different idea.

 

[ExCyber]

But whatever, they can debate it all they want.. I want something done. I don't feel like having some democrats moan about the vote in democratic counties is helping me in any way.

I don't hold out a whole lot of hope that this will result in anything other than partisan bickering (which is different from actual debate), but it would be nice to see some insight at least come out of it as a side effect.

The problem I see with a comprehensive independent investigation is that it would need fairly unrestricted access to government records, thus the government has to approve it, thus it gets vetted by most of the same people who want to pretend that everything's perfect (the hardcore partisans have not taken up the torch of "we must improve elections", they've just moved on to "we have to win in '06"), likely resulting in an investigation that is only nominally independent.

 

[Lyzel]

It's too bad that democrat liberals can't lose an election gracefully. There is always something wrong when they don't win. Hell, some considered the exit polls better than the real poll. Jesse Jackson again claims that blacks were marginalized due to rain and long lines. It's always the democrats that are marginalized...

By the way, if Senator Boxer's point was to bring attention to the issue, then this wasn't the best way to do it. This is disgraceful.

Bush won. Get over it.

 

[it290]

RTFA, dood.

 

[SkankinMonkey]

Originally posted by Lyzel@Mon, 2005-01-10 @ 10:09 PM

It's too bad that democrat liberals can't lose an election gracefully. There is always something wrong when they don't win. Hell, some considered the exit polls better than the real poll. Jesse Jackson again claims that blacks were marginalized due to rain and long lines. It's always the democrats that are marginalized...

By the way, if Senator Boxer's point was to bring attention to the issue, then this wasn't the best way to do it. This is disgraceful.

Bush won. Get over it.

[post=127552]Quoted post[/post]​

Seriously, you just showed how ignorant on this subject you truly are.