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vbt

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some videos online are pointing to games developped for segaxtreme contests, also games translated like ninpen manmaru and are available for purchasing !!

GunSlinginNinja (https:// gunslinginninja-thegamer.dudaone.com /)
Sega Saturn collectors and gamers. (https:// www.facebook.com /sega.saturn.collectors.and.gamers/)

do you think it's normal to act like this ?
 
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antime

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There's always bottom-feeders. These twerps are selling Nintendo ROMs, so I doubt they'll be around for long.
 
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I think you are talking about some videos I have done. I got asked to look at some games and do a few trailers/ reviews for them and give my opinion. I wasn't aware they were from sega xtreme contests. For example I know the Wolfenstein port has been around a long time but it was just the trial version and people are now working on it to make it so the whole game will be playable. so sort of expanding on work that has been previously done. the games are offered as repros or free download. some people do like to have it with a nice manual and box for the collection. the actual repros are nothing to do with me though, I have just done some trailers and a review for ninpen translation.
 

ScubaSteve

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I was aware that there was a goal to produce a fully working Wolfenstein 3d. But am not part of selling any repros or games. From what I know the guy makes very little money and the cost covers materials.
 

saturn.guru

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Hi

I am the creator of Sega Saturn collectors and gamers. We do not profit from any post, we aim to share information about anything and everything Saturn, Bringing info to the community.

Many people are making repro work now and some is totally amazing, not to mention the time and effort put in and the quality of the end product.

A lot of collectors want these for there unreleased games, ports, and homebrews.

The game in question was to be a full release of the game for free download for all. Gunslinger has made a retro set for anyone who wants a collection peace, as will all the other repro artits.

Credits where given for all your hard work. I really hope there is a peaceful end To This as I feel we all want the same, the Saturn to live on and thrive!

The more we can bring to the community the better.
Sega Saturn collectors and gamers promote the Saturn in every way possible, id love to have you join our group as we help lots of people with different needs and someone with your talents would be an asset to the group.

Thank you for your hard work on port.
 

dibz

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This is an interesting turn of events. A Facebook friend of mine actually asked me and another friend the other day, simply because he knew we were "Saturn" guys, if we had "gotten those ninpen and wolf3d protos before they were taken down." I have no idea what posts he was talking about, but two seconds of Google made it obvious it probably was those YouTube posts. They definitely did not mention that they were fan translations and vbt's or the newer homebrews. I thought it was pretty lame but didn't think much of it. My point is adding to the context that people certainly thought these were official prototypes, and that's a problem.

That said, I haven't looked again to see if things have been clarified since -- it sounds like probably?

I won't speak for VBT or others related to the incident, I would hope an apology and coming forward as you are would help smooth over the situation.
 

ScubaSteve

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I'm pretty sure if everyone sits down and talks this can be resolved without much trouble. It seems like a misunderstanding combined with a bit of oversight.
 

XL2

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I agree with vbt. At very least, before someone sells other people's work, they should ASK. None of us ever made money with our homebrew work, and with all the time (hundreds and hundreds of hours) we spend on these projects, nobody will make me cry saying that they spent 1 hour making a cd case cover so that it justifies selling it. Again, if they ask and the maker says fine, then no problem, but otherwise it's a no go.
 

mrkotfw

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This is all very confusing to me. You're claiming not to make a profit from the posts, but that isn't what's being contested here.

On the Facebook post, it states: "A full game release will still happen so if you enjoy this demo keep your eyes open for the full release. It will Be available to purchase with case art and manual in an official Sega case."

So which is it? Are you selling copies of Wolfenstein 3D or not? Are these including all the files necessary to play the game? If so, the real concern is that you're violating Id's software license. By asking vbt for permission or not is irrelevant.
 

vbt

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all these games are available for sales or pre-orders :

another world / out of this world : RAW - Another World for Sega Saturn.
flashback : REminiscence - Flashback for Sega Saturn
ninpen manmaru translation : Ninpen Manmaru English Patched?
wolfenstein : Wolf4SDL for Sega Saturn
surely soon : grandia translation : Translating Grandia
and sonic ztreme : (Saturn homebrew) Sonic Z-Treme

that's fanmade / homebrew stuff / ports that are not intended to be sold, i bet not only wolf3D cannot be sold, hkz work too, i think joshprod bought the rights of another world & flashback.

also about wolf3d i didn't give up with it and i know there is a bug on last boss. The port can be improved (speed/framerate) and if I find some free time I'll add Macenstein support. So, if someone else is working on it, fixing stuff (and not try to sell it). please share the updates on the dedicated git.

forums like segaxtreme are not free market where you pick free stuff, sell it without participating to/helping this small community.

on next releases, we should put some logos, that's a thing we didn't do before.
 
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So I'll throw my two cents in about the Grandia Translation. As far as Repros go, my main concern would be the fact it's not done and crashes are still very likely. I'd hate to have someone buy a repro of that only to have it crash. I'd feel terrible about that even though technically I had nothing to do with it.

As far as making cases, manuals, etc. go, have at it. You're basically doing the other part of the translation that I simply don't have the skill set to do as I'm not a graphics artist. However even after the patch is done, there's still the following legal issues with selling a repro of it with the actual game discs:
  1. The game is still the property of Game Arts and you're selling pirated copies. They are well within their legal grounds to send you a cease and desist.
  2. The translation is the legal property of Sony Computer Entertainment as it comes from the PS1 version. So again they are well within their legal grounds to send a cease and desist.
  3. If you start selling or taking preorders before the patch is done, you're also opening the door for me to get a cease and desist for the patch itself since again, I'm using Sony's translation.
Once the patch is done, I really don't care too much as long as any legal trouble people get into doesn't come back on me for simply making a patch to translate the game. Credit would be nice, but I won't lose any sleep over it. However I'd prefer if people refrain from taking preorders or selling beta repros before the patch is done for the above reasons.

Honestly I'd say to avoid legal issues just include blank, good quality CD-Rs with nice art printed on them for people to burn their own copies.
 

antime

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The code to Wolfenstein 3D was released under the GPL, so selling that is OK as long as you follow the terms of the license. You are also allowed to redistribute the shareware assets, but not those of the full game.
 

Saturn guru

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This is all very confusing to me. You're claiming not to make a profit from the posts, but that isn't what's being contested here.

On the Facebook post, it states: "A full game release will still happen so if you enjoy this demo keep your eyes open for the full release. It will Be available to purchase with case art and manual in an official Sega case."

So which is it? Are you selling copies of Wolfenstein 3D or not? Are these including all the files necessary to play the game? If so, the real concern is that you're violating Id's software license. By asking vbt for permission or not is irrelevant.
Hi

If you follow the group we share information including link for sale and download for free. Available does not mean that Colledge toes and gamers will be selling it a link for the case set will be available when the full game as been ported. At present it has not. If you look at some past post I hope this shows how the group works, we share much info but are only a place to find all the info our aim is to bring everything Saturn to one simple place for people to find and enjoy. Vbt credit where made for his work on the post. Also if a team is actively working on a translation we post links tho there sites, page, etc.

Sega Saturn Colledge toes and gamers does not profit, intact we offer free downloads for case arts and manual translations to go along with these projects.

We also follow hardware as well as software and offer links and reviews. The group is growing and we have a nice community. I’d love you all to join us, come and see first hand what it’s all about. We have a free google drive for all your Saturn storage needs full of saturn goodies as well as files and a photo album full of interesting useful things. We have people posting and asking about hardware projects and mods.

I understand legality around selling repro and such, you can pick these up on eBay or Etsy though a lot are low standard dvd case no effort. Others are official Saturn. Cases with manuals that have take many hours, and printing but the case time spent stitching manuals etc. I also understand the amount of hours put into these ports or translations and I know the Saturn community of late has got quite a few which has lift the spirits of the community and we all appreciate all the hard work given by the groups of people behind them.

Sorry for long post please come join us :)
 

Saturn guru

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Sorry last post had a few typos in it, 2 of my kids decided to jump all over me this morning so I was rushing to finish it.

My Apologies I’ve read it back and think it’s just about legible.
 

XL2

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We all understand that nobody is getting rich selling these. But I think it's wrong as it is now. I think the simple solution is just to ask permission to those who made the port/demo/game. After that we are all adults, if someone decides to sell something which is illegal, then at least he/she chose to do so and bear the consequences if anything happens. But I know that I would never agree with someone selling my demos/games and I would never consider selling them myself anyway, but that's just me. And like VBT said, the Saturn homebrew community is very small, the last thing we need is to turn people against each others.
 

cafe-alpha

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At a moment I wanted to reply to this thread, but even after several cleanup iterations, my reply draft was still not so constructive enough to be posted, so I threw it in my laptop until I find better time to prepare something good to reply.

And recently, I was contacted by someone wanting files about Reminiscence and Another World, whose (AFAIK) are abandoned projects no longer available for download. (*)
I do have copies of theses files here so providing them is technically not a problem, but how should we (segaxtreme members and Saturn homebrewers in general) should approach such kind of request ? Put theses files publicly available back ? Or ignore all of those requests ?

Personally, I'm pro of the "put back theses homebrew abandonware available for everyone" solution for the simple reason that keeping theses files restricted to a small number of people is feeding the kind of business linked in first post.
(BTW @vbt : unless you want to turn this thread into advertisement, please remove the link to machinninja in your first post, and for example please put a screenshot of linked page instead)

That won't magically make disappear such "stores" making cash on other people's work and not even crediting developers of theses projects. But at least people simply wanting to play and ready to read patching/setup/whatever instructions will be able to do it without having to pay people who didn't participated in any kind of homebrew development.

(*) I was also contacted about Policenauts, Wolf3D, Princess Crown and few other ones too. In theses cases, projects are still in development and/or their respective developers are still active and/or their respective developers clearly requested to stop being bothered about providing pre-patched images, so it's not me to choose about what should be (re-)shared or not.
 

KuroNeko666

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Hello everyone!
Sorry about the "rise from your grave" in this topic, btw.

(...)
And recently, I was contacted by someone wanting files about Reminiscence and Another World, whose (AFAIK) are abandoned projects no longer available for download. (*)
(...)
I'm not sure if it was you... but one month after your post here (mail and post date), I was searching the files from Flashback, mailing messages for the possible authors asking from where can I pick the files for re-generate the Saturn image again (if is possible).

Years ago, I used to download and store everything about homebrew for Saturn, and due to various problems (lack of CDR, my damaged Saturn, problems with my PC and my hard drive with backups just died), I just not burn a CDR with the game when I had the ISO with me.

Years passed... and I was looking some ports/ homebrews again for Saturn.
I've seen a cover from Flashback port for Saturn and search for it again (nowadays I have a good functional Saturn and some ways to store some homebrews backups properly). No downloads anymore... just found old links from already dead Rapidshare... or buy it with an "unfair" price, because the repro was not being sold by author of port.

Fortunately, with some effort and searches, I've found the guy who ported Flashback for Saturn and could reconstruct a playable ISO for play on my console.

The only thing that I've made was burn a CDR and play it again... and store the ISO with me.

About the topic itself: I've never agreed about "earn money with another people homebrew" or things like that. Here in Brazil, some guys make this dirty thing, and never contact the original authors about it. Just wanna make some cash from lazy or lay people... many times, delivering a bad repro.

I wish I would like to have a minimum of knowledge to contribute to the scene... the hard work that all of you here is amazing... And everytime I put a homebrew on my Saturn or Genesis, I almost cry with happiness!
 

Knight0fDragon

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Having started the Shining Force 3 translation project, I can tell you, people have been ripping us off for over a decade. We try to not let it discourage us, and do what we can to just inform people that if you paid for it, you are a sucker.

However, the one thing I am for, are the people who design their own case and label stamp art are and sell it with a disclaimer that the translation is free, and that you are only purchasing the artwork. I also try to contact the people to encourage them to donate a small portion of every sale to shining force central, but many don't unfortunately.
 

cafe-alpha

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Sorry about the "rise from your grave" in this topic, btw.
No problem for the necromancy, and in fact I would like to thank you because your post and @Knight0fDragon 's one motivated me to react back here.


I'm not sure if it was you... but one month after your post here (mail and post date), I was searching the files from Flashback, mailing messages for the possible authors asking from where can I pick the files for re-generate the Saturn image again (if is possible).
The mail I mentioned in my previous post is dated from 2019-05-15, so maybe it was from someone else.


Years ago, I used to download and store everything about homebrew for Saturn, and due to various problems (lack of CDR, my damaged Saturn, problems with my PC and my hard drive with backups just died), I just not burn a CDR with the game when I had the ISO with me.


Years passed... and I was looking some ports/ homebrews again for Saturn.

I've seen a cover from Flashback port for Saturn and search for it again (nowadays I have a good functional Saturn and some ways to store some homebrews backups properly). No downloads anymore... just found old links from already dead Rapidshare... or buy it with an "unfair" price, because the repro was not being sold by author of port.


Fortunately, with some effort and searches, I've found the guy who ported Flashback for Saturn and could reconstruct a playable ISO for play on my console.


The only thing that I've made was burn a CDR and play it again... and store the ISO with me.
That's cool if at least you could get a working iso :) I hope you enjoyed the game.


About the topic itself: I've never agreed about "earn money with another people homebrew" or things like that. Here in Brazil, some guys make this dirty thing, and never contact the original authors about it. Just wanna make some cash from lazy or lay people... many times, delivering a bad repro.
I know ... initially, getting a working iso for Ninpen Manmaru was an individual request from a gamer, so I thought it would be cool to re-host patch files and instructions so that people in the same situation could play this game.
And this ended in that gunslingwhatever selling overpriced repro discs, plus making a lot of commercial bling-bling around that. I just want people to play games on Saturn without caring of making profits (Pseudo Saturn Kai is free to download on my homepage, I don't beg for money on crowdfunding sites etc), so this is quite disgusting to see people making quick cash from other people's work in the same time.

From ninjawhatever' store, the translation of SF3 sc1-3 costs £30 (around USD 37 at today's rate), and Ninpen Manmaru costs £20 (around USD 24), which covers reproduction costs enough to also pay Mr Ninja's mortgage and bills.


Having started the Shining Force 3 translation project, I can tell you, people have been ripping us off for over a decade. We try to not let it discourage us, and do what we can to just inform people that if you paid for it, you are a sucker.


However, the one thing I am for, are the people who design their own case and label stamp art are and sell it with a disclaimer that the translation is free, and that you are only purchasing the artwork. I also try to contact the people to encourage them to donate a small portion of every sale to shining force central, but many don't unfortunately.
Thank you for the kind message ! It made me thinking it's better to keep fighting than being discouraged.
Personally, I'm okay with repros sold at the price of raw materials (CD-R, case, paper, ink) plus eventually one buck or two for the dude who prepared the repro. And yes, adding a link to the translation project page is the minimum of manners, not to say common sense.
 
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