PETA compares McNuggets to the Holocaust!

[mtxblau]

Originally posted by farugoth@Feb 26, 2003 @ 05:56 AM

So, you suggest we try to solve every problem that comes along in life, even if the chance of a "holocaust" scenario is dim? [SNIP] Some believe that we should shoot capitalists in the streets. Ask yourself: what is the "better place?"

Nice sentiments, but flawed logic. The utilization of that quote was to bring the the whole issue full circle - that it's not just a blind association, but in many circles, it is a Holocaust, but for animals. And as googlefest pointed out, it's very inhumane, how animals are treated. The problem is that since they aren't humans, it's not deplorable.

Preventing Hitler did not mean preventing World War I. When Hitler took power, France and Britain both looked at history and thought 'hmm, last time we pushed the enemy, we instigated war. This time, we'll let Hitler take over those countries'. Obviously, that was a terrible decision on multiple levels. First, they based their decision on the assumption that Hitler was of sane mind and conscience, neither of which he was (and they had such information indicating such). Second, they thought he would, on the basis of the rules of war, announce ultimatums before attacking. He did not. Stalin especially was caught in this conundrum, which is why Russia fell as quickly as it did (and if it weren't for the winter, they'd have certainly lost).

Now what is my logic? MY logic is if there are offenses being done, then we should speak against them. Obviously, Hitler attacking and adding to the German Empire is an offensive tactic. Attacking Saddam Hussein in a pre-emptive strike is not. He may have weapons, but he's not an idiot. Nor is he aligned with Al Qaeda, no matter how much Bush wishes it were so. However, there are tragedies occuring in Iraq as well, but war is not the answer, diplomacy is.

What I was/am suggesting is such - if there is such an issue which is so divergent from peace and equality for all, then it should be addressed. The Holocaust SHOULD have been addressed. Are you suggesting that Hitler should have stopped himself? What utter nonsense! What person of sane mind would suggest such a thing??

What is a better place? That's a pretty nebulous idea. Peace? Using renewable energy? The end of epidemics? Equality for all? Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I think it's misguided to believe that things should go as they are, simply because.

 

[gamefoo21]

i see it as if we didn't eat them they'd all starve and die off... but up here in canada there are really strick regulations guiding how farmers treat the animals. I watched this show a lil while ago that said Canada did alot more to keep ppl from abusing there animals than the states. But i don't care who you are there is a reason we were given sharp teeth and the ability to digest meat a shit load better than veggies. But we can do both so we get it real nice and don't have to eat stomach contents like alot of predators or have to have 4 stomachs. So really being a vegetarian is your choice but its not what nature intended for us. But i have to agree some of the things animals have to deal with is very bad i know i work at a barn that produces hogs for asia.

 

[mtxblau]

Originally posted by gamefoo21@Feb 26, 2003 @ 08:03 AM

i see it as if we didn't eat them they'd all starve and die off...

Of course they would. We mass produce them like Playstations. If nature were to take it's course, then there wouldn't be as much cattle.

You know, it's not far-fetched that we can be more humane as well as produce enough to feed the world. Hell, it'd certainly make the U.S. a lot less fat. I, nor any of the other people on this board are advocating vegetarianism (PETA may be, but that's their perogative). Just more humane treatment.

For those who want to argue the economic issues, sit down and enjoy. It's an interesting read, to say the least (yes, it's a book).

 

[mal]

Originally posted by MTXBlau@Feb 27, 2003 @ 03:31 PM

I, nor any of the other people on this board are advocating vegetarianism (PETA may be, but that's their perogative). Just more humane treatment.

:agree

 

[schi0249]

I am by no means a vegen. I eat meat, wear silk, wool and leather. I have no problem with that. Being a former pre-med student, I have no problem with science doing research on animals. Would you really want them testing a new aids virus on friends and family?

However, the way that most animals are treated in the us is disgusting. Animals are injected with multiple hormones so than can produce more meat. They are stacked to many in pens. This is leading to heavy pollution in our waterways. Living in Minnesota, we have some terrible corporate farms here.

 

[farugoth]

What I am suggesting, MTX, is that the same intentions and feelings you have about the Holocaust and factory farms are not much different than those of the Nazis. I'm sure these people felt that unjust actions were being imposed upon them and "their interests" Perhaps I should say that I believe in the idea of the "zero sum" action - ultimately there is no moral progression behind our actions. In fact any kind of "progression" we see is the result of immorality. For example, the coal industry was built up around the subjugation of coal workers, a good portion of whom were mere children. The reason we switched to petroleum was that it was much more convenient fuel source - not because of immoral labour practices. Factory farms are a part of that moral/immoral progression. The mindset is geared towards making a profit. Soon corporations will grow tired of having to deal with food poisoning and nasty diseases and perhaps naturally gravitate towards synthesized foods or plant-based products, as suggested by Moby. Speaking out against some kind of "moral standard" on such huge affairs is futile - if you desperately want change, you have to deal with the devil - not criticize or destroy him. In sense, you have to urge the system to do what you want by giving them what they want - that is, unless, you have a huge army backing you up at any given moment. I'm not saying factory farms are good, nor are they bad - they are just a component in a technology wheel.

As for the rise of Hitler, these kind of people will always exist, no matter how much we cry out against them. And fighting and killing them doesn't stop them either. It may all sound futile, but life isn't about making the world "right" since in a global secular sense there is no right and wrong. One's "right" is another's "wrong." Anyway, that is my train of thought on the issue.

 

[mtxblau]

Ah, classic economic theory - 'the invisible hand'. However, it's based on the supposition that people are well informed, and are willing to operate within the 'rules'.

Unfortunately, they aren't and they don't. Case in point - representative democracy - which is an exchange of one's personal freedoms for the ability to vote and make change in the government for appeasement. Also based on the principle that people are well informed. Yet, in 2002, only ~30% of the populace voted in an election that shifted the balance of Senate and the House. In fact, there was a sizable percentage in 2000 who thought they were voting for G. Bush, SENIOR.

Another prime example - tax cuts. They reduce dead weight loss and increase income, which in turn is supposed to be put back into the economy. Instead, people are saving money, creating a vicious cycle.

Essentially, the invisible hand only works when the people are informed and rational in definition of the invisible hand - which is why protest and outcry is necessary in today's world. Without it, there wouldn't be change, or education of mis/under informed individuals. If it weren't for protest, institutions such as disallowing blacks and women to vote would still be in effect, as would segregation, and the like.

It's a long running issue, the humane treatment of animals. Other countries have already taken steps to ensure a level of treatment that's more acceptable. Governments didn't just decide one day to target particular corporations - it's because of public outcry, reflected in protests, and very much so in voting, and the like.

 

[Nadius]

Watching the propoganda on their website last night (the videos, not the 'halocaust' campaign), sort of pushed me to attempt to become a vegetarian. I won't ever give up is dairy though, milk is too good. I don't eat very much meat as it is, so hopefully it will an easy transition... I don't know how i'll get around not eating double doubles... maybe i'll keep that.

 

[farugoth]

MTX, you are definitely up with your studies. Hat's off to you

If you truly believe that civil actions, protests, and other social reforms are actually controlled by the people or some moral cause, I can't convince you otherwise, nor should I.

Introducing a morality in our consumption is a questionable act in my opinion. I believe humanity is special and deserves consideration above animals, but that is just my opinion - it doesn't have to be yours. I add this part just to make sure I'm not sounding preachy. I am not against cannibalism, either, if the human is deceased and not killed. I believe that humans are rational conscience beings, beings that are capable of acts outside of logic and their natural instincts. (But humans tend to be lazy and rely on whatever status quo is around.) Art, I believe, is one of the bes indicators of conscienceness. What utility value does a painting have? Can you eat a painting? Can you till the earth with a song?? Are we better than animals? I don't know. But I believe killing animals is simply part of biology. Scientific thought, the enlightenment, the ends justify the means mentality is biological, darwinian. And there is nothing wrong with that in concept. Humanity is complex and perhaps needs to experience everything before making a judgement call. If you are compelled to be a vegan or vegetarian, be one, and no regrets. If you want to eat, have at it. Life's too short to quibble over such matters...

 

[mtxblau]

Although we'll probably never see eye to eye on all points, I must say I thoroughly enjoyed this debate. With intelligence in demand these days, you certainly have quite a bit. To you I tip my hat. Well done.

 

[farugoth]

I must ask, are you a Soc major? I'm impressed with your knowledge of government. I'm a Film Studies major, but have an interest in such theories.