Why I think War with Iraq Is justifiable

[mtxblau]

There's current development (by the gov't no less) that uses Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but gets the hydrogen from gasoline. Now, while that sounds stupid, it also could be that bridge between gasoline and hydrogen.

On another note - pro-choice doesn't indicate anti-life. Kind of like anti-war doesn't mean anti-america or anti-troops. It really should simply be anti - abortion or pro - abortion, or anti choice or pro choice. Further, in the purest sense, if you anti-abortion except in specific circumstances (ie, rape victims), that'd technically make one pro-abortion. It's all semantics, really.

In any event - I wish Bush would go to war already. I'm very against the war, but if he's going to do it without public support, at least quit wasting tax dollars to practice using weapons on dummy targets.

 

[Falstaf]

You might have noticed a lack of comment from me so far on this issue. Consider me neutral. I do have an opinion, but it has been expressed so well by somany others here.

One point I would like to make. Military leaders have been using a term for several years to describe the destruction and loss of civilian life in conflicts. it's called collateral damage. Kind of de-humanizing when you think of it. Maybe one reason the US produces so many gung ho war hungry people is because, other than a brief touch in WW2 (Pearl habour), it has been 150 yrs since a land war was fought in the US. For amny people in Europe, Asia, Latin America, Africa and the Arab nations, war has been a common, if not un-expected part of their lives. It's amazing how peaceful the lives of most Americans has been for a long time. Yes, young men have gone and died in foriegn lands, but until a year ago, make that 4-5 years ago, (Oklahoma City), the conflicts that the US has had a hand in creating and or guiding have never come back to seriously bite it in the ass. Bad things always happened over there. There terrorist incedents were and are terrible things. But there is a hipocracy to the US policies that allow it to freely trade with countries that are seen as arrising markets, and condemn, threaten and invade those that hold resources and won't play the 'game'. THe US has great power. But with great power comes great responsability. Sadly, it has failed far too often, instead acting as a selfish, spoiled child nation that it is. Leading is not threatening and coercing others to your viewpoint. A true leader does not have to convince. THey are followed because they are trusted. Can the US really say this is true of itself?

Lyzel.....It is exactly about that. If you have such strong convictions, live up to them. Though I have found that they who cheer the loudest never play the game. The sit warm and snug on the sidelines. Enjoy your TV guide.

OK............so maybe not so neutral after all.

 

[tsumake]

I believe "responsibility" doesn't exist on an international scale. Ever since Machiavelli, who am I kidding since forever, power is simply power. Responsibility exists to the extent of preserving power. Moral responsibility is an illusion. Benevolent or even malevolent acts done on an international scale aren't accomplished on moral imperative; rather, they are done with selfish intentions. The prevalent intention is always economics or the gathering of resources. On a smaller scale, say a charitable act between two people, the resource is an ego boost. A person's happiness can be considered utility by some, hence self-satisfaction can be considered a resource. This war has challenged my views, my very perception of humanity. I find both sides to be ridiculous, but I can tolerate the warhawks. Why? Because to me it's blatantly obvious they're delusional and overly emotional for the most part. The same with the peaceniks.

No one's innocent.

No one's guilty.

Welcome to humanity.

"If we don't like something in this country, we declare war on it; we don't do anything about it, we just declare war on it."

"Life is a zero sum game"

--both by George Carlin

 

[mal]

Originally posted by tsumake@Mar 18, 2003 @ 09:01 AM

No one's innocent.

No one's guilty.

Welcome to humanity.

That is such a cop out.

Regardless of our discussions, the world is moving towards war.

Are you all going to tune into George's speech in about 5 minutes?

 

[DBOY]

Yes, I saw it. That was incredibly disappointing. I knew it was coming, but it's still disappointing that the entire country can follow around a man with his head so far up his ass it's coming back out his mouth.

It's extremely disappointing how nobody seems to really grasp that just declaring a war or taking "military action" does not change the fact you are murdering people. The Spartans may have thought it did when they declared their yearly war on the Helots, but I don't think we have a god of war absolving us of that sin.

The people in Iraq are people. When you kill them you are killing people. It's not "collateral damage," it's not "necessary civilian casualties," it's people.

But the most disturbing thing to me is, the people of the US don't realize that this action will put into motion more events that will invariably come back to bite America in the ass even harder.

America is fucking over countries one by one. I imagine if the government we have now lasts another 100 years, there will be enough people of the world America has fucked over for the world to declare war on America.

 

[Curtis]

Originally posted by mal+Mar 18, 2003 @ 06:53 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mal @ Mar 18, 2003 @ 06:53 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-tsumake@Mar 18, 2003 @ 09:01 AM

No one's innocent.

No one's guilty.

Welcome to humanity.

That is such a cop out.

Regardless of our discussions, the world is moving towards war.

Are you all going to tune into George's speech in about 5 minutes? [/b][/quote]

Yeah...I caught the tail end of it. Seems Bush is fervent about war if nothing else.

I am most disappointed to see our own Government committing troops to action...fuck. The actions of today will backfire tomorrow on all countries involved - Australia does not have the resources to deal with any real terrorist threat.

Fuck. <_<

 

[Lyzel]

Get out of fantasy land, and get into reality people. Almost every nation and country has gone through wars, civil wars, etc. Hell, some are still at it right now. It is a fact of life. There will always be wars, anywhere in the world. So, stop acting like scared children living in a fantasy world where everyone is holding hands.

 

[tsumake]

Originally posted by Curtis+Mar 18, 2003 @ 01:39 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis @ Mar 18, 2003 @ 01:39 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by mal@Mar 18, 2003 @ 06:53 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-tsumake

@Mar 18, 2003 @ 09:01 AM

No one's innocent.

No one's guilty.

Welcome to humanity.

That is such a cop out.

Regardless of our discussions, the world is moving towards war.

Are you all going to tune into George's speech in about 5 minutes?

Yeah...I caught the tail end of it. Seems Bush is fervent about war if nothing else.

I am most disappointed to see our own Government committing troops to action...fuck. The actions of today will backfire tomorrow on all countries involved - Australia does not have the resources to deal with any real terrorist threat.

Fuck. <_< [/b][/quote]

It might. Or it might make a lot of money for a lot countries, which is what this war and wars in general is about.

A cop out, hmm? Perhaps it is. Perhaps I'm a coward. I just don't see the point of chasing my own tail anymore.

 

[Lyzel]

Originally posted by Curtis+Mar 18, 2003 @ 01:39 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Curtis @ Mar 18, 2003 @ 01:39 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by mal@Mar 18, 2003 @ 06:53 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-tsumake

@Mar 18, 2003 @ 09:01 AM

No one's innocent.

No one's guilty.

Welcome to humanity.

That is such a cop out.

Regardless of our discussions, the world is moving towards war.

Are you all going to tune into George's speech in about 5 minutes?

Yeah...I caught the tail end of it. Seems Bush is fervent about war if nothing else.

I am most disappointed to see our own Government committing troops to action...fuck. The actions of today will backfire tomorrow on all countries involved - Australia does not have the resources to deal with any real terrorist threat.

Fuck. <_< [/b][/quote]

Wow, you sound like a scared boy. If you sit on your ass now, it will come back later. So, what's so wrong with dealing with it straight-on? You want to let it get stronger??? I failed to see your logic.

 

[DBOY]

Originally posted by Lyzel@Mar 18, 2003 @ 02:34 AM

Wow, you sound like a scared boy. If you sit on your ass now, it will come back later. So, what's so wrong with dealing with it straight-on? You want to let it get stronger??? I failed to see your logic.

People like you cause problems like we have today.

 

[SkankinMonkey]

War is stupid. The only reason you're so goddamn gung-ho about it is because it has never hit you at HOME. Thats right, if the UN decided that the US was a rogue nation today, and called for an allied invasion, you'd shit your pants. Why? Because the war would be at your door. The bombs would be killing your family. Not 10000 miles away, but 10 feet away.

The US is a rogue nation, and one day it will have to account for this. I sincerely hope I live in another country when this time comes.

 

[DBOY]

I hope it's tomorrow.

 

[SkankinMonkey]

Originally posted by DBOY@Mar 18, 2003 @ 06:21 AM

I hope it's tomorrow.

You're closer to the border than I am too. :agree

 

[DBOY]

Yes, I could literally swim to Canada. Then I'll travel around holding anti-US demonstrations, burning flags, and trying to rally support for world war on the empire.

 

[Lyzel]

Originally posted by DBOY+Mar 18, 2003 @ 03:15 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DBOY @ Mar 18, 2003 @ 03:15 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lyzel@Mar 18, 2003 @ 02:34 AM

Wow, you sound like a scared boy. If you sit on your ass now, it will come back later. So, what's so wrong with dealing with it straight-on? You want to let it get stronger??? I failed to see your logic.

People like you cause problems like we have today. [/b][/quote]

Well, people like you want to believe that there are no crimes in the world. It seems reasonable to deal with the problem now, than waiting for it to be worse later. That makes me a bad person?? No. I don't think the way you do. While you're hiding in a corner, hoping that everyone hold hands... I want to get rid of a problem before it becomes much worse than now.

 

[ExCyber]

I may be out of line here picking up your argument, Curtis; please feel free to unapologetically correct me if I am...

Wow, you sound like a scared boy. If you sit on your ass now, it will come back later. So, what's so wrong with dealing with it straight-on? You want to let it get stronger??? I failed to see your logic.

I think his logic stems from the fact that Saddam is not the sole source of terrorism in the world, and that this war will almost certainly be perceived by at least a fanatical minority of Arabs as an intolerable act of aggression, which is likely to increase the risk of terrorist attacks against the states supporting it. You advocate "dealing with it straight-on", but terrorism doesn't claim natural resources or tracts of land - you can't throw lots of bombs at "it" to make "it" go away, because "it" is not an army or a government or an individual, "it" is a decision made by people who are willing to cross all moral boundaries to achieve their goals. Such attitudes are not vulnerable to weapons that cut, pierce, burn, or demolish. In the long run, a war against terrorism is a war to win hearts and minds, not land. It is a war to depose a harmful world view, not a self-serving dictator. By agressively attacking Iraq, we may win the war against Saddam. But without an exceptionally brilliant course of post-war action we may lose the greater battle.

 

[SkankinMonkey]

Originally posted by Lyzel+Mar 18, 2003 @ 06:35 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lyzel @ Mar 18, 2003 @ 06:35 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by DBOY@Mar 18, 2003 @ 03:15 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Lyzel

@Mar 18, 2003 @ 02:34 AM

Wow, you sound like a scared boy. If you sit on your ass now, it will come back later. So, what's so wrong with dealing with it straight-on? You want to let it get stronger??? I failed to see your logic.

People like you cause problems like we have today.

Well, people like you want to believe that there are no crimes in the world. It seems reasonable to deal with the problem now, than waiting for it to be worse later. That makes me a bad person?? No. I don't think the way you do. While you're hiding in a corner, hoping that everyone hold hands... I want to get rid of a problem before it becomes much worse than now. [/b][/quote]

Read: I hate hippies?

Grow up, peace isn't something the 'hippies' and younger generations want exclusively. It's goddamn common sense. You'd be suprised at the fact that the world will indeed still revolve on its axis even if someones not shooting at someone else in anger.

 

[Lyzel]

Originally posted by SkankinMonkey@Mar 18, 2003 @ 03:57 AM

Read: I hate hippies?

Grow up, peace isn't something the 'hippies' and younger generations want exclusively. It's goddamn common sense. You'd be suprised at the fact that the world will indeed still revolve on its axis even if someones not shooting at someone else in anger.

You should follow your own advise. This is a discussion board. You don't have to like my opinion. Right???

 

[mal]

I can't honestly see Saddam going into exile...

So war is going to start some time after another 45 hours and John howard has committed Australian troops to the conflict (I bet the Iraqis are quaking at that).

Has there been any word from Britain yet?

 

[SkankinMonkey]

Originally posted by Lyzel+Mar 18, 2003 @ 07:11 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lyzel @ Mar 18, 2003 @ 07:11 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-SkankinMonkey@Mar 18, 2003 @ 03:57 AM



Read: I hate hippies?

Grow up, peace isn't something the 'hippies' and younger generations want exclusively. It's goddamn common sense. You'd be suprised at the fact that the world will indeed still revolve on its axis even if someones not shooting at someone else in anger.

You should follow your own advise. This is a discussion board. You don't have to like my opinion. Right???

[/b][/quote]

I also don't like Hitlers opinion on the Jews, doesn't make his opinion any more valid does it? :smash