Why I think War with Iraq Is justifiable
- Thread starter Lyzel
- Start date
The connections between Islamic Terrorist activities in Iraq and Islamist Terrorists acting against the US in the 90s have never been made. If so, please show me some facts proving so.
Islamist fanatics hate Saddam Hussein. He was a major pawn of occident (and above all the US) for 20 years and always protected christian cult. Iraq still is the only arabic country where it is safe to be of catholic confession (even Liban doesn't have that chance).
Ossama Bin Laden and other Islamist fanatics always described Saddam Hussein as an infidel. Hussein himself only turned to muslim confession a few years ago (and in a *very* personal way).
The Islamist terrorist activists listed by Colin Powell as hiding in Iraq have nofuckallthing to do with Al Qaida, they're close to the GIA, i.e. Algerian Islamist fanatics, which had for target the Algerian Government, France, eventually from times to times the U.K and Germany but not directly the US.
Furthermore if a country had to be attacked on peremptive strike because it was hiding some terrorist cells, the US should invade the whole Europe, that has more Terrorist cells than all Iraq, which is essentially composed of persecuted moderate islamist people.
Finally saying that the US do that for the freedom of the Iraqi is either incredibly cynical or stupendously dumb. Otherwise why placing so many dictators worldwide over the years ??? The small countries are easier to manipulate, control and more than anything else exploit in the hands of dictators.
Islamist fanatics hate Saddam Hussein. He was a major pawn of occident (and above all the US) for 20 years and always protected christian cult. Iraq still is the only arabic country where it is safe to be of catholic confession (even Liban doesn't have that chance).
Ossama Bin Laden and other Islamist fanatics always described Saddam Hussein as an infidel. Hussein himself only turned to muslim confession a few years ago (and in a *very* personal way).
The Islamist terrorist activists listed by Colin Powell as hiding in Iraq have nofuckallthing to do with Al Qaida, they're close to the GIA, i.e. Algerian Islamist fanatics, which had for target the Algerian Government, France, eventually from times to times the U.K and Germany but not directly the US.
Furthermore if a country had to be attacked on peremptive strike because it was hiding some terrorist cells, the US should invade the whole Europe, that has more Terrorist cells than all Iraq, which is essentially composed of persecuted moderate islamist people.
Finally saying that the US do that for the freedom of the Iraqi is either incredibly cynical or stupendously dumb. Otherwise why placing so many dictators worldwide over the years ??? The small countries are easier to manipulate, control and more than anything else exploit in the hands of dictators.
I feel I should point out that the Ansar-al Islam terrorist cells operating in Northern Iraq are operating outside of Saddam Hussein's sphere of influence. They are inside the region refered to as Kurdish controlled Iraq. What Saddam may or may not think about this is irrelvent - it's not his territory.
Just because the US is acting, does not immediately make it right. The number of important questions that remain unanswered leave me no alternative than to consider this action wrong.
Think about how our legal system works. When someone is accused of commiting a crime, it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove that that person has committed the crime. The defendant can make a statement such as "I did not do this" and if the prosecution can't prove that he did, he walks. It is called "reasonable doubt".
Now think about what the world is asking Saddam to do - "prove that you don't have chemical weapons or terrorist links". I really don't know how you are supposed to prove that you don't have something. I could claim anything I like about anyone I know, but without being able to prove it I'd be dismissed as a fool. That is why the weapons inspectors were there. Maybe it was slow - hell, maybe it wasn't working at all - but now that there are troops on the ground we'll never know. It is a case of shoot first and fuck the questions.
The same conclusion can be reached about the war. The action is "the war" and the onus is on the actor (the coallition forces) to justify it. You can't say "justify why we shouldn't be going to war". It just doesn't work that way. This isn't about opinion, this is about absence of fact.
Just because the US is acting, does not immediately make it right. The number of important questions that remain unanswered leave me no alternative than to consider this action wrong.
Think about how our legal system works. When someone is accused of commiting a crime, it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove that that person has committed the crime. The defendant can make a statement such as "I did not do this" and if the prosecution can't prove that he did, he walks. It is called "reasonable doubt".
Now think about what the world is asking Saddam to do - "prove that you don't have chemical weapons or terrorist links". I really don't know how you are supposed to prove that you don't have something. I could claim anything I like about anyone I know, but without being able to prove it I'd be dismissed as a fool. That is why the weapons inspectors were there. Maybe it was slow - hell, maybe it wasn't working at all - but now that there are troops on the ground we'll never know. It is a case of shoot first and fuck the questions.
The same conclusion can be reached about the war. The action is "the war" and the onus is on the actor (the coallition forces) to justify it. You can't say "justify why we shouldn't be going to war". It just doesn't work that way. This isn't about opinion, this is about absence of fact.
mrkotfw
Mid Boss
That "This is War" Site nearly made me cry, that is just so sad... my god how can that person show pictures of that person burned to ... the second i saw the head i felt a pain in my brain, a heacache? i just feel i have to post that. i hope war can just stop now im not tree-hugging hippie but seeing that made me sick to my stomach.... now that i have seen those shocking pictures i now know how horrible it is...
i mean gay porn isnt as bad as those pictures... oh god i hope i can sleep tonight
If you're going to put in your .02 cents in this discussion, then by all means please do, otherwise SHUT UP. You obviously failed to see my sarcasm. I'm not going to lower myself to your standards. Thanks. [/b][/quote]
Who was it who resorted to calling people 'pussies' again? Also Lyzel, your 2 cents has hardly been that exhaustive - mainly being comprised of 'war has started so there's no point disagreeing', 'if you don't like war, you're a pussy' and 'I don't care about your opinion but I feel the need to post mine'. Perhaps people would take you more seriously if you went and did some research and got a better argument together, as well as at least question the facts and motivations that you've been fed. As it stands, your last twenty-odd posts have done nothing but make a fool out of yourself.
I'm not saying this because I disagree with you, but because reading this thread is getting pretty tiring and pretty frustrating with the absence of any substance from the pro-war side.
Who was it who resorted to calling people 'pussies' again? Also Lyzel, your 2 cents has hardly been that exhaustive - mainly being comprised of 'war has started so there's no point disagreeing', 'if you don't like war, you're a pussy' and 'I don't care about your opinion but I feel the need to post mine'. Perhaps people would take you more seriously if you went and did some research and got a better argument together, as well as at least question the facts and motivations that you've been fed. As it stands, your last twenty-odd posts have done nothing but make a fool out of yourself.
I'm not saying this because I disagree with you, but because reading this thread is getting pretty tiring and pretty frustrating with the absence of any substance from the pro-war side. [/b][/quote]
And what have you offered? The news that I was fed? Give me a break. If you're really going to stick to that, then how did you get your views that this war was wrong? You were at all the meetings, and in Baghdad to come to your conclusions??? I mean, that's the only way to see the real truth, to be there. Correct? But you know what? You just hate that I agree with the war. I can give you hundred of reasons for it, and you will simply retort to again say how wrong I am for this war, and how right you are. It's just pointless. What is so hard for you to get in your head? Accept that this is MY views. You can say whatever crap you like against it. Heh, you can even insult me all you want. Do I care? No.
I can say all this and that of how wrong some of you are, but you know what? I don't, because that's your opinion. You can't claim to know everything, all the reasons, etc against this war.
As to me making a fool of myself on these posts... oh well? Do I really care? No. You don't know me. You just can't accept that there is another view out there that's FOR the war. So, call me a fool all you want.. but really think about that one for a few minutes...
A pussy in my opinion is someone that just hides or do nothing, rather than taking control. It is also the kind of person that people push around, and they do nothing. That's what I mean when I say that. I'm not calling anyone a pussy, I am calling their ideals that. Do you see the difference??
Lyzel, the problem is you're not giving any solid reasons why you are supporting the war. Simple moral posturing is the lowest excuse for any action. I challenge you to list some cogent reasons why you are supporting this war. Give your sources, your "million reasons" and lay them on the table. And be prepared to argue your point on every one of them, because frankly the anti-war movement has some pretty well thought-out reasons. When you're opinion has the support of the majority of intelligentsia and literati, you get some pretty eloquent responses. I'm not trying to slam you down, Lyzel. I'm trying to help you flesh out your opinions. If you can find facts to support your opinions and defend them, then you're on your way to becoming a better arguer. You can't bully your way into an argument like Michael Moore, Bill Maher, or Bill O'Reilly. You have to show some finesse, like Dennis Miller
Once again, your ability to miss every point is astounding.
Not much. You're having such difficulty dealing with one or two people at a time, it'd be cruel to join in on any more intellectual level.
The 'news that you are fed' refers to lapping up everything CNN tells you and not questioning it. If you were to look over the internet, you could find endless sources of arguments to back up your point of view, but instead you merely regurgitate what Bush has said in his big speeches.
Actually, I didn't mention anything about who was right or wrong, merely that the way you are putting your point across is ineffective to say the least.
I wasn't insulting you, just trying to make you see the way you are presenting yourself, which is doing your wider argument no favours. And please don't take the high moral ground when you are the one who started flinging insults in the first place.
See above, I didn't disagree with your point of view in my post. That wasn't the point of it. To think that anyone who criticises you is closed-minded.. That's arrogance in the extreme. And I've thought for a few minutes. So, what was your point?
Inciting a discussion is very different to saying you are plain wrong. As far as I recall, no-one has come out and said you are wrong. There is no definite right and wrong in situations like this.
This just plain doesn't make sense. You can't call someone's ideals 'a pussy'. People amount to what their ideals are and however you'd like to justify it, you are saying that anyone who is anti-war is a pussy. And exactly who has been pushed around here? Has the US been in a state of emergency for the last ten years that I've not heard about?
To me, a pussy is someone who believes in something, but doesn't dare do anything about it. Which brings me back to my previous post.. Are you now typing these posts up from a bunker in Iraq, or are you sitting in your bedroom with a cup of cocoa?
Not much. You're having such difficulty dealing with one or two people at a time, it'd be cruel to join in on any more intellectual level.
The 'news that you are fed' refers to lapping up everything CNN tells you and not questioning it. If you were to look over the internet, you could find endless sources of arguments to back up your point of view, but instead you merely regurgitate what Bush has said in his big speeches.
Actually, I didn't mention anything about who was right or wrong, merely that the way you are putting your point across is ineffective to say the least.
I wasn't insulting you, just trying to make you see the way you are presenting yourself, which is doing your wider argument no favours. And please don't take the high moral ground when you are the one who started flinging insults in the first place.
See above, I didn't disagree with your point of view in my post. That wasn't the point of it. To think that anyone who criticises you is closed-minded.. That's arrogance in the extreme. And I've thought for a few minutes. So, what was your point?
Inciting a discussion is very different to saying you are plain wrong. As far as I recall, no-one has come out and said you are wrong. There is no definite right and wrong in situations like this.
This just plain doesn't make sense. You can't call someone's ideals 'a pussy'. People amount to what their ideals are and however you'd like to justify it, you are saying that anyone who is anti-war is a pussy. And exactly who has been pushed around here? Has the US been in a state of emergency for the last ten years that I've not heard about?
To me, a pussy is someone who believes in something, but doesn't dare do anything about it. Which brings me back to my previous post.. Are you now typing these posts up from a bunker in Iraq, or are you sitting in your bedroom with a cup of cocoa?
It's funny that you failed to see mine.
You're right. All you're doing is attacking me. How can you join on a more intellectual argument?
Is that the only American News channel that you know of in the UK?? Really. That's not a trick question. I don't remember ever mentioning that I watch CNN.
How do you even know that I don't get my news from the internet?? Again, assuming here. Did you forget that the first thing that I did to start this thread was post a link to a Yahoo News story with the reason why I am in favor of the war? What? You missed that?
Heh, it does sound like it. Are you going to tell me now that you support the war? Maybe I missed that part?? It doesn't take a genius to see how vehemently you are against the war.
My point exactly.
I don't work for the US government to see what isgoing on in the background. Do you??
Why are you repeating what I said? Did you missed the point? I don't know all the answers, just like you and anyone else wouldn't either. Then again, around here some people talk like they know everything 100%.
Funny how Lyzel doesn't quote the posts asking him to give some arguments...
antime
Extra Hard Mid Boss
"A chickenhawk is a term often applied to public persons - generally male - who (1) tend to advocate, or are fervent supporters of those who advocate, military solutions to political problems, and who have personally (2) declined to take advantage of a significant opportunity to serve in uniform during wartime."
What do you think of that Iraqi Info Minister?
He should be a stand up commedian or something.
The Information Minister just gave a press conference on top of some building. Said that there are no tanks or troops in baghdad, and the ones that did try to go in were delt with. US soldiers commiting suicide....airport is not secured....etc...
I think a tank column needs to drive up in the background of one of his speeches, it would be classic.
He should be a stand up commedian or something.
The Information Minister just gave a press conference on top of some building. Said that there are no tanks or troops in baghdad, and the ones that did try to go in were delt with. US soldiers commiting suicide....airport is not secured....etc...
I think a tank column needs to drive up in the background of one of his speeches, it would be classic.
At least spell it right.
It's not propaganda, it's truth!
The leaflet reads "The oil industry is your livelihood."
What other livelihood do Iraqis have? Farming? ... yeah right! The oil industry is what supports Iraq.
Actually, to be more acccurate, it is what has supported Saddam more than Iraq. It has allowed him to live in riches while the Iraqis suffer in poverty. If Iraq is to be rebuilt without Saddam, the country needs to protect it's largest export.
So what if a fraction of this war is over oil!! THE WORLD DEPENDS ON IT!! It's not pocket books and wallets that would suffer, everything that surrounds you while you read this depends on oil. Think about it. Oil is our lifeblood and Saddam cuts our wrist by torching them. Oil is limited and he waste it and ruins the enviroment! If you're using the internet to read this, then your lifestyle already greatly depends on this oil. No electricity, no heat, no grocery, no transportation, or not even a freakin' oil lamp. We honestly can't imagine life without oil.
To put it simply, Saddam is a terrorist. No doubt about it. This is not propaganda, it's obvious of how terrorizing this man is. Even without weapons of mass destruction or even a steak knife this man is a terrorist.
Did you know under Saddam's regime an insult about Saddam wins you a death sentence? Iraqis are forced to like and respect him. Saddam admitted this himself in an interview.
War protester's here in America should celebrate the fact they have the right to protest. Some spoiled Americans here don't know what freedom is because they havn't had it stripped from them like the Iraqi people.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not "pro-war." I am however aware you can't be passive in all situations.
IceMan2k, it would indeed be classic. It reminds me of the Wizard on "Wizard of Oz." "I'm am the almight Wiz of Oz .... get the f@ck away Todo!"
