any body remember ff7 being converted....

[antime]

Based on those screenshots, it might well use the rotational planes. Since you have two planes, you can place them side by side and change the parameters further down the screen. It wouldn't work if you wanted more than two screens side-by-side, but like this it could work.

 

[Yceman]

I loved the snes Street Racer, and looking at those screens made me very excited about this saturn version... I think I'll be looking for this one

 

[Dyne]

well i read the first 2 pages and i must say even if i dont understand it all you guys amaze me

 

[Shitface]

Same here

 

[Tagrineth]

I'd just like to add a few new points re: Akumajo Dracula X.

I was wrong, most transparencies were replaced with crap dithering (the mist looks especially horrid).

However, I can prove the game was a victim of insanely bad programming:

Saturn has twice the usable main RAM (PS1 - 1MB, Saturn - 2MB). Saturn also has a much larger load buffer (can't remember the size but someone said it's 16x larger IIRC). Its CD-ROM is identical speed (2x). So in theory, at worst, the load times should be identical. Right?

Wrong.

On average, load times are over twice as long... and the subscreen takes about 4-7 seconds to load. AND an additional load is added before and after boss rooms and special conversations. WHY?!

 

[ExCyber]

Saturn has twice the usable main RAM (PS1 - 1MB, Saturn - 2MB).

Actually, PSX has 2MB also. Saturn does however have an additional 512KB of VRAM that is dedicated to the frame buffers, whereas PSX has to allocate the frame buffer(s) out of its 1MB of VRAM. The catch here is that the VRAM is not unified; there's 512KB for VDP1 and 512KB for VDP2.

Saturn also has a much larger load buffer (can't remember the size but someone said it's 16x larger IIRC). Its CD-ROM is identical speed (2x). So in theory, at worst, the load times should be identical. Right?

Wrong.

On average, load times are over twice as long... and the subscreen takes about 4-7 seconds to load. AND an additional load is added before and after boss rooms and special conversations. WHY?!

Yeah, that's the big giveaway, to my mind. If Playstation's CD-ROM subsystem were a Pentium, Saturn's would be a dual Pentium Pro. It's pretty ridiculous that the performance difference would suggest exactly the opposite. Still, I doubt programmer incompetence is to blame for this; they probably just weren't allowed enough time to do things properly.

 

[Tagrineth]

Actually, PSX has 2MB also. Saturn does however have an additional 512KB of VRAM that is dedicated to the frame buffers, whereas PSX has to allocate the frame buffer(s) out of its 1MB of VRAM. The catch here is that the VRAM is not unified; there's 512KB for VDP1 and 512KB for VDP2.

That's why I said "usable" main RAM. 1MB on the PS1 is used for video.

Yeah, that's the big giveaway, to my mind. If Playstation's CD-ROM subsystem were a Pentium, Saturn's would be a dual Pentium Pro. It's pretty ridiculous that the performance difference would suggest exactly the opposite. Still, I doubt programmer incompetence is to blame for this; they probably just weren't allowed enough time to do things properly.

It's also the OTHER Konami team that did the port. But it's still pathetic.

 

[ExCyber]

That's why I said "usable" main RAM. 1MB on the PS1 is used for video.

There's a dedicated 1MB of VRAM in addition to the 2MB of work RAM.

 

[shinhoshi]

Dracula XX SS was made by KCEN (Nagoya) while the PSX one was made by KCET (Tokyo). If the SS port was made by KCEO the game would have been probably better because they were more talented using SS hardware (Policenauts and Snatcher).

The most fun about Dracula X on SS is that the slowdown is a totally random thing. I haven't experienced slowdown at all fighting the giant brain boss while the game had terrible slowdown with NO enemies on screen.

/*-----------------------------------------*/

But going back on topic, I think that it's impossible to make MGS on SS. It's so much things that PSX does by hard that SS should by soft. And just remember that all this would rest capabilities to the SH1 which pps is already very low. Sure BR looked very good but the draw distance was ridiculous. Sure VF2 hi-res and 60 fps was impressive, but when comparing char models to Tekken 3 (or even 2) the game paled considerably.

IMo, the main problem SS has is the low polygon power. And if you begin to add and add effects, this power decreases dramatically.

In the manual of SS, they claim to use the DSP to calculate coordinates (instead of SH-1)...The DSP from the Yamaha chip ?

 

[antime]

Originally posted by shinhoshi@Jun 18, 2003 @ 02:14 AM

And just remember that all this would rest capabilities to the SH1 which pps is already very low.

The SH1 handles CD subsystem requests, not sure what you mean here.

Sure VF2 hi-res and 60 fps was impressive, but when comparing char models to Tekken 3 (or even 2) the game paled considerably.

More importantly, look how it achieved its high-res graphics - by mutilating the backgrounds.

In the manual of SS, they claim to use the DSP to calculate coordinates (instead of SH-1)...The DSP from the Yamaha chip ?

The DSP of the SCU.

 

[fivefeet8]

Originally posted by shinhoshi@Jun 17, 2003 @ 07:14 PM



But going back on topic, I think that it's impossible to make MGS on SS. It's so much things that PSX does by hard that SS should by soft.

IMo, the main problem SS has is the low polygon power. And if you begin to add and add effects, this power decreases dramatically.

I think it's quite possible to make MGS on the Saturn. Hell, MGS on the psx runs at only 30fps and sometimes drops to 15-20 fps when heavy Framebuffer effects are used. And like someone said before, the saturn could use quads to draw a scene which on the psx would require more triangles.

The polygonal power of the saturn is on par with the psx.

 

[shinhoshi]

As far as I remember the 200000 texture-mapped pps of the SS are less than the 360000 that the PSX pushes with all effects turned on.

Realize that MGS is a tour de force for the PSX. KCEJ WEST pushed the machine further of its limits. It's a game specially designed to take advantage of PSX.

 

[AntiPasta]

well the Saturn can be pushed to its limits too... it's just harder

Moreover, the sound DSP is used for polygon processing in Shining Force 3, for instance - bringing the total number of programmable power to 4 processors

 

[Daniel Eriksson]

Moreover, the sound DSP is used for polygon processing in Shining Force 3, for instance - bringing the total number of programmable power to 4 processors

Four? SH1, 2 * SH2 and the DSP, but what more? The Motorola 68EC000?

But what does the two VDPs do?

Sure VF2 hi-res and 60 fps was impressive, but when comparing char models to Tekken 3 (or even 2) the game paled considerably.

I still think VF2 looks better. Just think of how the hair falls correctly on the caracters. But if you want more detailed caracters, Last Bronx did that. More detailed models, some 3d elements in the background, 60 fps and hi-res. Also, Dead or Alive did the same and as for me, it looks far better than tekken.

(Toshinden URA also had hi-res mode. Atleast thats what ive heard, I havent played it. However, it looks quite bad on the screenshots. Any other Saturn hi-res fighters?)

 

[Curtis]

Fighting Vipers was hi-res. I'd be surprised if Fighters Megamix and VF Kids were not hi-res.

 

[shinhoshi]

Just compare Akira with Jin Kazama. The geometry used in the PSX port of Tekken 3 was incredible higher. And the textures used are incredible...Just run it on emu and be amazed at the job Namco did. And it also runs at 60 fps.

Virtua Fighter is not a contender for Tekken 3, well at least this is what I think. This doesn't prove SS to be inferior to PSX nor the contrary, just that the game is not on par (IMO).

Is there any fighter that kills Tekken 3 and that runs on SS ??? Sure, it is called VF3 and SEGA released it for a machine called DC. VF3 has that geometry that VF2 lacks, incredible effects (such as the motion blur), dynamic environments and 60 fps. Why SEGA didn't release it for SS ? I still wonder this seeing some screenshots that showed a very polished work.

 

[antime]

Originally posted by fivefeet8+Jun 18, 2003 @ 07:05 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fivefeet8 @ Jun 18, 2003 @ 07:05 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>And like someone said before, the saturn could use quads to draw a scene which on the psx would require more triangles.

[/b]

Quads vs. triangles mean nothing if you're fill-rate limited.

<!--QuoteBegin-Daniel Eriksson@Jun 18, 2003 @ 02:17 PM

Moreover, the sound DSP is used for polygon processing in Shining Force 3, for instance - bringing the total number of programmable power to 4 processors

Four? SH1, 2 * SH2 and the DSP, but what more? The Motorola 68EC000?[/quote]

The SH1 isn't programmable.

 

[Shakey Jake33]

Originally posted by shinhoshi@Jun 18, 2003 @ 08:49 PM

Why SEGA didn't release it for SS ? I still wonder this seeing some screenshots that showed a very polished work.

Presumably Sega Japan knew they'd need a killer app title for the Dreamcasts launch.

Oh and Fighting Vipers and Fighters Megamix did actually run at a signifcantly lower resolution than VF2.

 

[fivefeet8]

Originally posted by shinhoshi@Jun 18, 2003 @ 07:49 AM

Just run it on emu and be amazed at the job Namco did. And it also runs at 60 fps.

Run it on VGS and not the graphical enhancing emulators and see how pixelated it really is. Tekken 3 also used flat 2d planes for backgrounds on the psx.

 

[ExCyber]

As far as I remember the 200000 texture-mapped pps of the SS are less than the 360000 that the PSX pushes with all effects turned on.

According to Sony Computer Entertainment America, 360K/s is the number for flat shaded. Their number for textured + gouraud is 180K. In any case, polygon rate is not the end-all of graphics specs. N64 for example pushes quite a lot fewer polygons than PSX or Saturn, but due to the flexibility of the RSP and clever design, the games can end up looking better.