New 3d saturn game

[Daniel Eriksson]

Go grab Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, and PowerSlave for Saturn.

PS is 30fps, DN is 30fps, and Quake is 20fps. Multiplayer via system link only.

SH-2 isn't nearly as efficient as ARM7.

I aldready have all those. I know they are great! Though, none of them have a splitscreen mode, and none have a four player option. That was what is was talking about The Sh2s should easily be able to handle four times as much as those gba-games mentioned earlier, so a four-player splitscreen mode on an fps game on Saturn is not impossible. Heck, theres even a two-player splitscreen fps on the Genesis (Bloodshoot, Battlefrenzy). Like Wolf 3d but in a space setting.

 

[Tagrineth]

I aldready have all those. I know they are great! Though, none of them have a splitscreen mode, and none have a four player option. That was what is was talking about The Sh2s should easily be able to handle four times as much as those gba-games mentioned earlier, so a four-player splitscreen mode on an fps game on Saturn is not impossible. Heck, theres even a two-player splitscreen fps on the Genesis (Bloodshoot, Battlefrenzy). Like Wolf 3d but in a space setting.

No, no, no, a thousand times no.

If you do a 2x split screen you effectively need around 100% more geometry and 50% more fill rate (usually not double except in the most insanely complex, demanding games). If you're already plodding along at 30fps (Powerslave, Duke3D) you do NOT have headroom for splitscreen. Seriously, Lobotomy obviously knew how to code the Saturn.

If it's Wolf 3D, it's probably restricted to 'all 90 degree angles, solid vertical walls, horizontal floors/ceilings all at the same height' in which case it's a basic software 3D engine. If you want to see how Saturn handles a complex software 3D engine, try DOOM and Hexen. Their performance is TERRIBLE.

I'm sure a Wolf3D-quality 'restricted environment' game could work on Saturn, possibly even a full-on 3D FPS - with a SERIOUSLY small draw range - but it wouldn't be fun, really.

Just FYI - those GBA games are using the 16MHz ARM7 probably to its absolute fullest and, from my experience playing DOOM and DOOM2, are also definitely not even a stable 30fps.

 

[Alexvrb]

Rand Linden is working on a 3d engine for GBA that is even more advanced than those, he's maxed it out (pure skilled ARM/thumb asm). Its compatible with Quake maps/models/textures. Though, that doesn't mean its going to look the same as a PC, and resolution is low as it IS running on a GBA. Still very very advanced. Getting ported to other handhelds too, like cell phones and maybe n-gage, some phones have a lot more power than the GBA (Rand knows what he's talkin about). If you want more info, its on the DCE forum, just look at the recent posts by rand. Or for the company page, its http://www.bobbeetec.com/

Anyway, I think as a basis for comparison you'd need a Saturn game designed for splitscreen. You don't need to be doing anything as complicated. It wouldn't be completely software based if you wanted it to run at a decent speed. Speaking of which, the Doom/Hexen/anything else ported by that company (whoever did it) really suck ass. If 32X can handle Doom as well as it does with just its lower-clocked SH2s, I'm pretty freakin sure Saturn could have had a perfect port.

That said, just because it is CAPABLE of doing something does not mean the programmers can do it. That's not doubting anyone's skill, but you understand what I mean. That's quite an undertaking. I think you'd be better off developing some cool 2d RPG or 2d multiplayer action game. Like streets of rage or something? Just a thought.

 

[Tagrineth]

Anyway, I think as a basis for comparison you'd need a Saturn game designed for splitscreen. You don't need to be doing anything as complicated. It wouldn't be completely software based if you wanted it to run at a decent speed. Speaking of which, the Doom/Hexen/anything else ported by that company (whoever did it) really suck ass. If 32X can handle Doom as well as it does with just its lower-clocked SH2s, I'm pretty freakin sure Saturn could have had a perfect port.

Did you read my posts at all?

Powerslave, Duke3D, and Quake were done by Lobotomy Software and are incredibly well ported.

I suspect that DOOM and Hexen on Saturn are only using one SH-2, but that isn't saying much considering that Hexen at least dips into single-digit frame rates at times.

32X's DOOM port is running at a MUCH lower resolution than Saturn's, by the way. That makes a significant difference in software render engines.

One example of a Saturn game which DOES use splitscreen is Sonic R, but the draw distance in splitscreen rivals that of some N64 games...

 

[AntiPasta]

well, I'm with Daniel on this one. Heck, the PSX can handle 4 player splitscreen Quake II (it looks way worse than single player mode though) so it shouldn't be *entirely* impossible to do it on the Saturn. Of course the draw distance would be crap, but hey, if the levels are well-designed that isnt that much of an issue...

 

[Daniel Eriksson]

One example of a Saturn game which DOES use splitscreen is Sonic R, but the draw distance in splitscreen rivals that of some N64 games...

Really, there are many two-player splitscreen games on the saturn which works well. Sega Rally for example, and the draw-distance is very far away, and it all runs in 30fps without problems.

well, I'm with Daniel on this one. Heck, the PSX can handle 4 player splitscreen Quake II (it looks way worse than single player mode though) so it shouldn't be *entirely* impossible to do it on the Saturn. Of course the draw distance would be crap, but hey, if the levels are well-designed that isnt that much of an issue...

Indeed! There is also some monster-truck racinggame on the PSX which had four-player splitscreen and ran at 20 fps. It would be possible to use on of the soundchips on the Saturn to calculate more 3d data. As in Grandia. Thats far beyond my knowledge though...

 

[Daniel Eriksson]

Oh, and don´t forget : Street Racer has a 8-player splitscreen mode on the Saturn, and there is no slowdown at all. (I have the game).

 

[antime]

If that's the game there was a thread about some time ago it's not polygon-based and thus not really comparable.

 

[slinga]

Street Racer looks like crap with more than 2 players and get's progressively worse.

 

[Alexvrb]

Originally posted by Tagrineth@Sep 9, 2003 @ 04:58 PM

Anyway, I think as a basis for comparison you'd need a Saturn game designed for splitscreen. You don't need to be doing anything as complicated. It wouldn't be completely software based if you wanted it to run at a decent speed. Speaking of which, the Doom/Hexen/anything else ported by that company (whoever did it) really suck ass. If 32X can handle Doom as well as it does with just its lower-clocked SH2s, I'm pretty freakin sure Saturn could have had a perfect port.

Did you read my posts at all?

Powerslave, Duke3D, and Quake were done by Lobotomy Software and are incredibly well ported.

I suspect that DOOM and Hexen on Saturn are only using one SH-2, but that isn't saying much considering that Hexen at least dips into single-digit frame rates at times.

32X's DOOM port is running at a MUCH lower resolution than Saturn's, by the way. That makes a significant difference in software render engines.

One example of a Saturn game which DOES use splitscreen is Sonic R, but the draw distance in splitscreen rivals that of some N64 games...

You're were trying to use really shitty ports as examples of why the saturn can't do something. Otherwise why would you mention Doom and Hexen? Then you mention GOOD ports and Powerslave, but they were not designed for splitscreen from the start. It's obvious you couldn't maintain that graphical level and do splitscreen. Why are you disagreeing with them? You're saying it can't be done? I'm saying it'd be hard as hell, and it might not be the prettiest thing in the world, but its not impossible. So while I don't think it'd be a good homebrew project, that hardly makes it impossible.

 

[Tagrineth]

I mentioned the crappy ports because as I said, they're only using one SH2 (that's the problem). Let's assume they're using 50% of ONE SH2. That means when they get busy, they might be able to sustain... 15fps? on one screen with one SH-2. THat means using both SH2's for a software engine would result in about ~13fps if the action got heavy.

Now, yeah, fair enough, Duke3D and Powerslave could probably be made multiplayer with a cut in draw range and a few quad adjustments... but no more than 2 players. MAYBE. IMO Lobotomy really tore into Saturn's capabilities already with Duke and Quake.

Oh, and Street Racer is using VDP2 planes. All VDP1 objects are parallel to the veiwport, so transforming them is dirt cheap, and there aren't many of them at all.

And finally, keep in mind PS1 can do way more than twice as many triangles per second as Saturn can do quads, and has more fill rate on top of that.

 

[antime]

Hey great, someone's finally done the measurements! I hope you don't mind sharing your numerical results along with your benchmarking programs (source and binaries, plz) and anything else that is relevant to reproducing your results.

 

[M3d10n]

The problem with DOOM and Hexen is not simple "they use only a single SH2". They are *BAD* ports, as unoptimized as it can be.

It seems those games not only use a single processor, it seems the processor is also used for rendering, since they use custom software engines.

Also, Doom was ported straight from the abomination that is the 3DO version, and it's rendering engine looks far worse than the PC version, or even the 32X and Snes versions, even if on a slightly higher resolution.

Had they ported the game to use the VDP1 for rendering, like Duke Nukem 3D, Quake and PowerSlave, things could've been better.

As for split-screen... it could work, but at low framerates (~15), using 2D sprites for characters/items, and fairly simple levels (indoor, many corridors and some aggressive sector-based culling going on). Not sure if it would be fun enough under such conditions.

 

[Tagrineth]

The problem with DOOM and Hexen is not simple "they use only a single SH2". They are *BAD* ports, as unoptimized as it can be.

It seems those games not only use a single processor, it seems the processor is also used for rendering, since they use custom software engines.

That's why I specifically separated DOOM/Hexen from PS/DN3D/Quake.

DOOM and Hexen are literal software engine ports, while the other three are conversions.

The first two would have almost identical performance to the latter three if they were converted by Lobotomy too, and probably worse by most other companies.

That's also why I said I assumed 50% CPU usage. That's hellishly unoptimal for a console.

Also, Doom was ported straight from the abomination that is the 3DO version, and it's rendering engine looks far worse than the PC version, or even the 32X and Snes versions, even if on a slightly higher resolution.

Irrelevant. Software engine performance doesn't vary much based on IQ, assuming the general technique is the same. If DOOM had been bumped up to the quality of, say, the PC version, it would've probably kept identical performance to the crappified version. But... I seriously SERIOUSLY doubt it could conceivably look worse than the SNES version. :\

Had they ported the game to use the VDP1 for rendering, like Duke Nukem 3D, Quake and PowerSlave, things could've been better.

...which is why I also discussed Lobotomy's conversions separately.

As for split-screen... it could work, but at low framerates (~15), using 2D sprites for characters/items, and fairly simple levels (indoor, many corridors and some aggressive sector-based culling going on). Not sure if it would be fun enough under such conditions.

Pretty much what I said in my last post here.

 

[mrkotfw]

well, what have we started

 

[Daniel Eriksson]

Well, if not a raycasting engine. I think it would be possible to do a Daytona Style Racer. Using real 3d gfx and not mode7 (like Street Racer). Think about it : Sega Rally looks superb even in two-player mode and it has very little draw in. Now, double the draw in. The game would still be playable in four player splitscreen and look ok (sorta like the first Daytona). Another thing that must be included is that when having four small screens, the polygon fill rate will go faster, since the polygons are smaller (Well, im not an expert on the subject ). I think a racing game could be done like that. If necessary, Mode 7 could be used as a ground, which the 3d level could be built upon (like Sonic R). This would work. Once again mentioning that V-Rally 3 runs on the Gba and looks good. What do you think? This is a possibility?

 

[AntiPasta]

Another thing that must be included is that when having four small screens, the polygon fill rate will go faster, since the polygons are smaller (Well, im not an expert on the subject

True, but the amount of polygons increases... so even if the required fillrate remains constant, the amount of 3D calculations and polygon setup will greatly increase - this has to be overcome by either some clever use of the Saturn's programmable power or a decrease of polygon count.

 

[Alexvrb]

Or both.