Fahrenheit 9/11

You know, I can't help but laugh every time I hear liberals whining about the fabled al qaeda connections.

You know where the belief in those connections originated? It certainly wasn't in the Bush administration. The connections had been stated as fact by the Clinton administration on numerous occassions.

But that probably didn't quite make it into Moore's film, did it?

:bs
 
Originally posted by mal@Jul 5, 2004 @ 04:17 AM

So why did you include it in that block of your reply where you were justifying the US invasion?

You know, the bit I quoted in the first place.

Oh my gosh! I give up! Geez!!!
 

mtxblau

Mid Boss
Originally posted by Caelestis+Jul 4, 2004 @ 08:27 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Caelestis @ Jul 4, 2004 @ 08:27 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> You know where the belief in those connections originated? It certainly wasn't in the Bush administration. The connections had been stated as fact by the Clinton administration on numerous occassions. [/b]


So wait, that justifies skipping bin Laden and going straight for Saddam? Intelligence from a previous administration?

That still doesn't address what I was getting at earlier.

To make it clearer:

What is the justification for diverting resources from the pursuit of the leader of a recognized leader of a world-wide terror organization, who had claimed responsibility of the attacks on the USS Cole, the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon, to dethroning a dictator whose connection to al qaeda was at best plausible but generally considered untenable (depending on who you ask; if we go by the 9/11 commission, then the latter)?

Whatever the numbers are, I think it's fairly certain that the number of troops sent to Afghanistan are far fewer than those sent to Iraq.

And, even more to the point, why just Iraq? Why not Saudi Arabia? Most of the assailants of 9/11, including bin Laden, are Saudis.

Why is there such a major concern about rebuilding the infrastructure of Iraq, but not as much attention delegated to Afghanistan?

Clearest:

Before 9/11, no one was thinking about Saddam. Shortly after 9/11, Saddam is enemy #1. Almost all resources directed at getting him. Yet bin Laden hadn't been caught yet.

Why?

<!--QuoteBegin-Lyzel
@Jul 4, 2004 @ 08:43 AM

Oh my gosh! I give up! Geez!!! [/quote]

You know, the support of Israel in this feud is out-moded. What the US should do is simply disband both Israeli and Palestenian governments and reorganize both states.

No, I'm not being sarcastic and I'm not joking. If the U.S. (more specifically, this administration) is going to take it upon itself to be world peace keeper and protector (or cite that as a reason), it should go about resolving this issue properly.

Much like Iraq, diplomacy (as cited in a previous argument) has failed numerous times (over a much longer period of time) between the two countries. And both countries have terrorized each other, though the generally pro-Israeli reporting may see it otherwise.

Same should be done for India and Pakistan over Kashmir.
 
Originally posted by MTXBlau@Jul 5, 2004 @ 05:23 AM

Clearest:

Before 9/11, no one was thinking about Saddam. Shortly after 9/11, Saddam is enemy #1. Almost all resources directed at getting him.


Oh? Really? Then why did President Clinton attack Iraq in 1998? He too though Saddam was a threat to the United States. Hell, he even defended Bush's push for war! Do you really think our Presidents are idiots?? Geez. Why must people always politicize /criticize a President's action. Can you really claim you know everything just because it is what you hear on the media? Does the media have access to all US Classified info?? No. There are some things that the majority of the people will never know.

For the non-believers (who seek references) see the link below. :rolleyes:

Look at this google link.
 
So wait, that justifies skipping bin Laden and going straight for Saddam? Intelligence from a previous administration?

That still doesn't address what I was getting at earlier.

To make it clearer:

What is the justification for diverting resources from the pursuit of the leader of a recognized leader of a world-wide terror organization, who had claimed responsibility of the attacks on the USS Cole, the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon, to dethroning a dictator whose connection to al qaeda was at best plausible but generally considered untenable (depending on who you ask; if we go by the 9/11 commission, then the latter)?

(...)

And, even more to the point, why just Iraq? Why not Saudi Arabia? Most of the assailants of 9/11, including bin Laden, are Saudis.

It's all political, and we got the short end of the stick, as did Saudi Arabia.

Clinton was offered bin Laden by foreign countries on more than one occassion, and refused to take him. I'm still dumbfounded by this move, but one can only assume it had political motivations of some sort, either in the form of human rights violations on the part of those offering him, or simply fear of reprisal by terrorist organizations.

At any rate, you certainly can't fault the Bush administration for not fixing all the failures of the previous administration, just as you can't blame the Clinton administration for Bush Sr.'s not finishing off Saddam in the Gulf War (which would have been "barbaric" as I believe the New York Times put it).

In essence, George W. Bush has been handed a presidency with a long list of problems that needed fixed, and he's not quite the political spinster that previous administrations (both republican and democratic) were. I honestly believe in my heart that he is doing all he can to fix as many problems as possible during his tenure. And to be honest, whether or not you believe his moves to be misguided is simply a matter of how skilled his PR team is (not very).

If you scrounge around for all the news you can find, as I assume you do, you'll find that there's still a lot of action going on in Afghanistan. Pat Tillman (the football player who turned down a multi-million dollar contract in favour of joining the Army Rangers) died there a while back, but for the first few weeks it was assumed to have occured in Iraq. Basically, most stories don't get official press releases by the Army for a few weeks (or longer) until after their occurance. At times like this, the press is unreliable for their coverage. Ever since the Geraldo Rivera incident, the press has pretty much been left to fend for themselves, and they're struggling to get facts. At any rate, as is always the case in the media, Iraq is the jucy story for the time being, so it's going to be the headliner at all times, until something more interesting happens. I guarantee once bin Laden is found, the focus will shift back to Afghanistan for a few weeks.

As for Saudi Arabia, they're simply cowards, but understandably so. There are terrorist schools and all sorts of similar things. Unfortunatly for Saudi Arabia, the situation wasn't cracked down upon when it first arose, and now it's impossible to remove it. Imagine what would happen if they got 80% of the terrorists arrested in one evening. The other 20% would rip the entirety of the nation apart. Even if they were to get 90% or 95%...

You can't expect a nation to understand why their own neighbors are reduced to blowing themselves up in a school, bus station, or marketplace on a daily basis... Even if your cause is noble. It's the reason I understand the actions of Iraqis who have lost those dear to them, despite my hope that I'd understand 'why' placed in a similar situation.

At any rate, the Saudi government does what it can, but it's usually very limited.
 
Originally posted by MTXBlau@Jul 5, 2004 @ 12:23 AM

And, even more to the point, why just Iraq? Why not Saudi Arabia? Most of the assailants of 9/11, including bin Laden, are Saudis.

I think it's largely for political reasons.

Of the two countries, we were more prepared to invade Iraq. Documents going back as far the Gulf War existed detailing methods for such an invasion. And the Clinton administration had kept them updated throughout the 90s. And of the two regimes, Saddam's was the more oppressive. There was no chance of the Iraqis bringing about change themselves. In Iran, there have been a few student-led protests aimed at regime change. Sadly, they were repressed and the whole event got zero media coverage here.

A democratic Iraq has the potential to be a huge force for good in the Middle East. Much more so than Afghanistan could be, by comparison. (And fyi, we do still have troops in Afghanistan to maintain stability in the country. We haven't forgotten about the place.) I believe that pressure from both the U.S. and Iraq, combined with support by civilians, would be enough to bring about change in Iran peacefully. And surely that is a better alternative to a U.S.-led invasion.

But however it happens, it is imperitive that something changes in Iran.
 

ExCyber

Staff member
In essence, George W. Bush has been handed a presidency with a long list of problems that needed fixed, and he's not quite the political spinster that previous administrations (both republican and democratic) were.

That's hilarious. Okay, maybe Bush himself doesn't have the gift, but that job falls to Karl "don't roll out a new product in August" Rove, Scott McClellan et. al., and they know what they're doing in spades.

Clinton was offered bin Laden by foreign countries on more than one occassion, and refused to take him.

The main story with any kind of traction at all is the "Sudan offered to extradite bin Laden" one; the way I heard it, a self-styled "ambassador" to Sudan purported to be relaying the offer unofficially, and the administration thought he was full of crap. The 9/11 Commission has also reportedly said that they found no evidence that Sudan ever made such an offer, but I can't find a direct source on that.
 
You know, I can't help but laugh every time I hear liberals whining about the fabled al qaeda connections.

You know where the belief in those connections originated? It certainly wasn't in the Bush administration. The connections had been stated as fact by the Clinton administration on numerous occassions.

But that probably didn't quite make it into Moore's film, did it?

A belief is a belief. I have no problem with Bush or Clinton believing that there were WMD in Iraq, when in fact there were not. But I do have a problem with people ACTING on that false intelligence, instead of allowing continued inspections and cooperating with the U.N. It's clear that Bush never really gave the inspectors a fair chance to complete thier work and constantly reminded them (and us) that war was inevitable.

Bush new excuse these days trumps the suggestion that we are supposedly better off and the world is safer now that Saddam is gone, but how? Because we've destablized Iraq? Because we've recovered no WMD? Because the war on terror has taken a side-rode since we need to spend time quelling uprisings by radical groups in Iraq instead of devoting time to Afghanistan, the nation everyone seems to have forgotten? Because we've spent 100+ billion dollars on a war effort that failed on it's initial claims? Because our relations with every non-coalition nation is in the dumpster?
 

mtxblau

Mid Boss
Oh? Really? Then why did President Clinton attack Iraq in 1998? He too though Saddam was a threat to the United States.

Quoting me:

Note this isn't justifying keeping Saddam in power... however, considering all these operations were to 'get the terrorists', I think the priority should have been to get the terrorists first. Saddam being removed from power was overdue, however, the fact that Saddam has been captured for several months, and that we're still on a constant state of alert, that something, somewhere wasn't thought out correctly.


Had you missed it, I wasn't questioning that.

Why must people always politicize /criticize a President's action.

Sorry, but this is pretty asinine. This country was founded upon that basic precept: questioning our leaders. Written into our laws is the basic premise that if this government is not doing what its supposed to be doing, it should be replaced by one that is. It's part of being an educated citizen of the United States. Or is this the new republican hotness, that questioning our leaders is unpatriotic?

Can you really claim you know everything just because it is what you hear on the media? Does the media have access to all US Classified info?? No. There are some things that the majority of the people will never know.

No, I don't claim anything. Ironic that you post a link shortly after this quote, but that's neither here nor there.

Can you honestly say that the same amount of resources was/are being used to pursue bin Laden than those used to oust Hussein?

I think more effort was put into creating a link between Iraq and Al Qaeda than there was in destroying al Qaeda.

It's also clear that the U.S. troops aren't leaving the region for a long time, further limiting the ability to pursue al Qaeda in other countries (army personnel is a limited resource).

As for Saudi Arabia, they're simply cowards, but understandably so. There are terrorist schools and all sorts of similar things. Unfortunatly for Saudi Arabia, the situation wasn't cracked down upon when it first arose, and now it's impossible to remove it. Imagine what would happen if they got 80% of the terrorists arrested in one evening. The other 20% would rip the entirety of the nation apart. Even if they were to get 90% or 95%...


So the formula of invading the country and rebuilding it ala Iraq doesn't apply to Saudi Arabia? I think this alone makes a stronger case for invading Saudi Arabia than Iraq.

Clinton was offered bin Laden by foreign countries on more than one occassion, and refused to take him. I'm still dumbfounded by this move, but one can only assume it had political motivations of some sort, either in the form of human rights violations on the part of those offering him, or simply fear of reprisal by terrorist organizations.


Of all the nebulous intelligence reports, this one annoys me the most. I just finished a search on this, and this is what I came up with, from various news sources.

1. Clinton tried to have bin Laden killed several times. He placed a bounty on bin Laden's head and bombed Afghanistan in hopes of hitting bin Laden (the firing of the cruise missles is not an argued fact, it's purpose however is).

2. The Sudanese offer was on the table but Clinton didn't take it.

3. (flip side) The Sudanese offer was on the table, but the Saudis refused to help and it ultimately fell through.

4. Clinton increased the counter-terrorism budget by 400% to pursue bin Laden.

5. (flip side) Clinton did nothing but make inquiries and did nothing to pursue bin Laden, especially after the U.S.S. Cole.

A democratic Iraq has the potential to be a huge force for good in the Middle East. Much more so than Afghanistan could be, by comparison. (And fyi, we do still have troops in Afghanistan to maintain stability in the country. We haven't forgotten about the place.) I believe that pressure from both the U.S. and Iraq, combined with support by civilians, would be enough to bring about change in Iran peacefully. And surely that is a better alternative to a U.S.-led invasion.


I can't really see that happening. Iraq wasn't Iran's friend before we invaded them, and I don't think pressure from a US controlled Iraq is going to get Iran to change their ways anytime soon. This kind of theory is the same reason why the U.S. supported Israel (the domino theory), and that's yet to pan out. I think an invasion of Saudi Arabia would have been much effective - the current government isn't as uniformly hated as it was in Iraq by its neighbors.

---

If we're going to blame a previous administration for it's inaction, we best also not forget the lack of Bush Sr's aptitude for capturing Hussein. By several accounts (again, this is based on limited information, but it's all we have) Iraqi opposition fell very quickly, and Hussein and Baghdad could have been taken within 48 hours, but inexplicably failed to do so. Especially considering Desert Storm was largely funded by third parties (aka not the US).

The thing about Clinton's desire to overthrow Hussein is that Clinton cared much more than Bush about the world's opinion. Also, Clinton had no real reason to attack Iraq, whereas 9/11 was spun into a reason for invading Iraq (heck, it was supported by a majority of the U.S. in the early going). Face it, a majority of people would have popped a blood vessel if Clinton decided to unilaterally invade Iraq without a reason other than regime change. Even though the link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and 9/11 was questionable (then and now), it was still a reason for regime change in Iraq (much more than Clinton had, anyway).
 

it290

Established Member
You know where the belief in those connections originated? It certainly wasn't in the Bush administration. The connections had been stated as fact by the Clinton administration on numerous occassions.

So, it doesn't bother you at all that said connections are still stated as fact by Bush and his team? And if Bush really believed such a connection existed all along, why wouldn't he devote more resources to investigating it before 9/11?
 
I have yet to see the connections proven false. In fact, I continue to see many examples of the connection. If I find any of the articles, I'll link you to them.

The reason why Bush didn't devote more resources to pursuing the connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda is because terrorism was simply not high on anyone's list of priorities. There was no way he could have raised the political support to launch a large-scale attack on terrorist organisations and groups.
 

Xavier

Mid Boss
Why didnt we attack the following countries ?

1. Korea there you guys go again what happened to exhausting deplomacy ? Talks had only been broken down for a couple months at that point not 12 years , and this will be like another member said a bloodbath .

2 Iran , Iraq I believe was to be part of the staging grounds for Iran theve been pretending to cooperate so what can you do ?

3. Saudi Arabia , an attack on this country will really be seen as a war on Islam . Anyways the monarchy cannot be directley linked . Its just the coutries way of life and ignoring the teachings going on in mosques . The more terrorist attcks happen on this land and the more the princes and kings are threatened to lose power the more attention will be payed to these nuts . ONE point lets say a bunch of American Neo-nazi go and do a large scale attack against the Saudis how much responsibility does America hold for thier actions ?

+ none of these countries had signed a cease fire / peace treaty with us
 

it290

Established Member
I have yet to see the connections proven false. In fact, I continue to see many examples of the connection. If I find any of the articles, I'll link you to them.

The reason why Bush didn't devote more resources to pursuing the connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda is because terrorism was simply not high on anyone's list of priorities. There was no way he could have raised the political support to launch a large-scale attack on terrorist organisations and groups.

So you think the 9/11 commission's statement on the Al Qaida link was insufficient? Also, what reasons do you suppose Bush had for opposing and delaying the formation of the commission? Can you justify that?

Also, Bush not only did not increase anti-terrorism funding, he actually cut it. It may not have been 'high on anybody's list of priorities', but he was aware of potential attacks, including the use of airplanes.

As for countries that we did/didn't attack, what about Pakistan? Why weren't there any consequences for them leaking nuclear secrets to the North Koreans? Merely because they decided to play ball with us (and not very well, at that). BTW, I'm not saying I think we should attack/should have attacked any of the named countries; I just don't think there was any reason to go after Iraq in particular, especially if that means taking people away from tracking down Osama and his buddies.
 

it290

Established Member
...bump. So again, do you guys really think it's preferable to be devoting the majority of our military resources to Iraq rather than tracking down Al Qaida? And how does everyone feel about the martial law powers that were just given to the new Iraqi President? I wonder if they'll use that as a tool to delay general elections...
 

Xavier

Mid Boss
I believe your question is redundant as Al Qaida has come to Iraq . Its closer to all the countries that they come from .

Dont know why all they have in Afghanistan is Special Forces and a little support but thats the way they choose to do it (generals). Al Qaida would rather fight in Iraq because theres more tagets there . All the 10,000 or so troops in Afghanistan does is chase off Al Qaida and Talibahn it doesnt mess to much with the ruling warlords or claim to have total controll of the country , I would find this less offensive if I lived there though . Martial law like not being out to late ? I think its a good thing , coalition forces stopped curfews after Ramadan and as far as I know never started re-inforcing it . True troubler makers are going to come out whenever they want but...
 

ExCyber

Staff member
Martial law like not being out to late ?

Martial law basically means that the military takes over administration of the law. In other words, the military - an organization tasked with fighting wars - effectively becomes judge, jury, and executioner. This is not generally considered to be a desirable arrangement.
 

Xavier

Mid Boss
yeah i can see your point...the Iraqi military ?

But some people there need to be put in there place they been acting a fool because they know they can . Sadams not there to have thier entire village killed .

I can see it , " You messed up Meester I kill you ...your family...and while im here allready the rest of this town ."
 

it290

Established Member
I believe your question is redundant as Al Qaida has come to Iraq . Its closer to all the countries that they come from .

It's not redundant, as the question is really 'why did we get ourselves into this when we could have been hunting down Al Qaida operatives?'. True, there are Al Qaida operatives in Iraq now, but we knew all along (even when it was assumed by many that there was a connection) that the majority were in other countries. You say there are fewer soldiers there because they don't have to maintain the whole administration of the country (which is true), but as the movie states, there are fewer soldiers there than there are policemen on the island of Manhattan. I imagine it would be very difficult to find anybody in Afghanistan with a force that size while at the same time trying to maintain a relative peace (which they also have to do- people have been killed for registering to vote). Now that the UN is there, the US presence has actually decreased, as well. Keep in mind that this country has 2-3 times more people in it than Manhattan does, is many times the size, and is full of rugged, mountainous terrain with an extensive network of underground caves.
 
Originally posted by it290@Jul 8, 2004 @ 12:40 AM

You say there are fewer soldiers there because they don't have to maintain the whole administration of the country (which is true), but as the movie states, there are fewer soldiers there than there are policemen on the island of Manhattan.

It has already been proven by the Media outlets that many of the things said on this movie is misrepresented (*cough*propaganda*cough*).

I think it is hilarious that it290 continually references this movie for facts.

I mean, from the start of this Movie, moore explains that the Bush administration stole the 2000 election in Florida because of "high friend" officials and Brother Gov Jeb Bush, then he attempts to make a link that the Bush family was in bed with the Saudis, and the Bin Laden family. He continues on that the President did not know what to do when the planes attacked the twin towers (he was in a Florida's classroom). Any sane person can see from the video that the President seem nervous and upset. He was being advised of what was going on at the time and that the government/military/etc were trying to find out what was going on. Seriously, what could the president have done? Would things have been differently if he had rushed to Washington, or NY? No. Last time I checked, he was not Superman.

Anyways, I can see where this thread is going so, I'm out.

Oh yeah, did you know that UFOs are in California? I was able to record one with my video recorder. But it was weird... when I tried to play the tape.. it was blank!!! aaarrrggg!!! I know. You won't believe me! But it is true!!! cuz I said so!

(note for those that actually believe ufo story: the ufo story is false!)
 
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