current us events

Science states that any number (when speaking of statistical chances or oportunities for an event to ocurre naturally with no outside unnatural manipulation) with a factor of greater then 10 ( a number followed by 10 zeros) is considered an impossability.

I've never heard of this. In any case, it's probably just a rule of thumb, not an absolute rule. There's also nothing scientific about such a statement, because the scientific method cannot feasibly prove that something is impossible.

The statistical chance that lifes origins did in fact occure in this manner is 1 in 20 followed by 200 zeros.

Based on what?

A mathimatical impossability.

If it was a mathematical impossibility, the probability would be zero. Any non-zero probability means, by definition, that it is possible.

Firstly ,it's the fact that science did not accept this as a fact for over 2000 years.

"Science" does not accept or reject ideas. Prominent scientists at that time might have not believed in a spheroid Earth, but that brings us to one of the great things about science: it gives us a framework for debunking bad theory. Many scientists have been wrong about many things, and any scientist worth his/her salt won't deny this. Still, it is unfortunate that some science-oriented institutions and some scientists are excessively dogmatic about things like the conservation of matter and energy, the second law of thermodynamics, and other things that the scientific method is fundamentally incapable of proving.
 
Then neither has anyone else, by your logic. None of what has been stated here as scientific proof for evolution is provable. You don't agree? Try me. Raise a point and I will come back with a reply usually referencing well known (for those even aware of who the leading scientists have been for the 20th century) scientist. Really. I have a big reference library here on this subject alone. Many of the works are even by noted evolutionst. Does anyone else here have this available or, as I stated, are you merely parroting what you have heard?

If you want we can start with the fossil record.
 
god thinks all blacks are obsolete from equipment

god thinks the jews killed his son and must be punished

god thinks the white man is satan

god, they know what god thinks

god thinks we should all convert to judaism

god thinks we must all be christians

god thinks we should all embrace islam

god thinks the only true religion is hinduism

and i, i know what god thinks

god thinks you’re a waste of flesh

god prefers an atheist

god, god

god thinks all people like you are hateful

god thinks all people like you are an embarrassment to creation

self righteous, judgmental, first to throw the stone

and using his name for your own protection

god thinks the sun revolves around the earth

god thinks there was something very wrong with copernicus

god thinks abortion is murder

and god thinks everything that science gave us is wrong

god thinks we're indeservate

god thinks AIDS is a form of punishment

i hate people who blame the devil for their own shortcomings

i hate people who thank god when things go right

and i, i know what god thinks

god thinks you’re an idiot

god prefers a heretic

god, god

god thinks all people like you are hateful

god thinks all people like you are an embarrassment to creation

self righteous, judgmental, first to throw the stone

and using his name for your own agenda

god is a liberal, god is a democrat, god wants you to vote republican

never trust a man who puts his words in the mouth of god and says it's absolute truth

it's lies and it smells like death

it's all in a days work, taking money from the poor

why do you think that god would need your dirty money if he wanted to start a whole new war

self righteous, judgmental, first to throw the stone

and using his name for your own protection

god thinks puppies need to die

and god thinks babies need to drown

cuz god is neither god nor bad

god is you and me

god is everything


"God Thinks" by Voltaire - this song sums up many of my thoughts on all things related to god and politics. When will people realize that god is a completely unfathomable idea and just deal with the fact that ORGANIZED religion is merely men putting their own words in the mouth of "god."

There is but one law: Be a good person and do what you can to improve the world around you. Live by that and whatever happens in whatever afterlife we go to, when you meet whatever "god" that may exist, if you have lived by that one rule nothing else should matter.

But those who are willing to fight and resort to violence to force their beliefs on others are doing nothing to improve their surroundings, rather they are causing deconstruction. That is my problem with the whole US vs. Taliban and terrorists deal. We may be attacking them in retaliation, but they believed the same thing when they destroyed the towers. They believed that they were retaliating for the encroachment of christian ideas into their culture. As it is, they see the US as the face of those christian ideas. If both sides would completely drop and forget all things related to their religion, a solution would quickly be found. The same thing can be said of the situation in Israel / Palestine. Both peoples are totally oblivious to the fact that they each worship different translations of the same texts. Mohammad=Abraham. Allah=Yahew.

The only way the world will ever be at peace is if everyone drops all facets of organized religion, quits trying to force the idea of “there is one god and he is mine” on the rest of the planet. If all of man- and woman-kind simply shuts the fuck up and builds their faith privately, inside themselves. Go with what you believe for you own reasons, what makes sense to you. Ignore anyone who says “you must believe this or suffer,” as they are making shit up to further their own agenda. Each of us has our own answers, but we must look inside to find them. And we must all remember that our answers are our own, and aren’t going to be the answers for someone else.

As for “one nation, under God…” That goes right back to saying that everyone must follow the same ideas. While even with my above argument, it could be said that if each of us has our own god, wouldn’t that be what the pledge refers to? No. Because for some of us, “god” is not the answer. All it takes is a one-line rewrite:

I pledge alliegance

To the flag

Of the United States of America

And to the republic

For which it stands

One nation united

For liberty and justice for all

Is that so horrendous?

And for anyone offended by any of the above, let me reiterate: I have not spoken out against your faith, but merely the organization of men whom you have allowed to dictate what your faith is. Men. Humans. They do not have the voice of god, and their answers may not be and probably are not your own.

Okay, rant over…
 
not bad vertigo not bad at all. One thing i have to say though is religion isn't the sole problem for the problems you mentioned. Religion is sometimes just the black costume puppeters wear to be less noticable. If you took away all organized religion maybe the world would be better, but there'll still be many more problems that are engrained in all of us.
 
Science" does not accept or reject ideas. Prominent scientists at that time might have not believed in a spheroid Earth, but that brings us to one of the great things about science: it gives us a framework for debunking bad theory. Many scientists have been wrong about many things, and any scientist worth his/her salt won't deny this. Still, it is unfortunate that some science-oriented institutions and some scientists are excessively dogmatic about things like the conservation of matter and energy, the second law of thermodynamics, and other things that the scientific method is fundamentally incapable of proving.

Yet science does this all the time. And new theories are haled as truth when in fact a theory is just that, a theory and unproven.

Dogmatism and evolution? Hmmmm! Here are some quotes regarding evolution from some well known scientists in various fields. You may recognize a few names.

The “scientific method” is as follows: Observe what happens; based on those observations, form a theory as to what may be true; test the theory by further observations and by experiments; and watch to see if the predictions based on the theory are fulfilled. Is this the method followed by those who believe in and teach evolution?

Astronomer Robert Jastrow says: “To their chagrin [scientists] have no clear-cut answer, because chemists have never succeeded in reproducing nature’s experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter. Scientists do not know how that happened.”—The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe (New York, 1981), p. 19.

Evolutionist Loren Eiseley acknowledged: “After having chided the theologian for his reliance on myth and miracle, science found itself in the unenviable position of having to create a mythology of its own: namely, the assumption that what, after long effort, could not be proved to take place today had, in truth, taken place in the primeval past.”—The Immense Journey (New York, 1957), p. 199.

According to New Scientist: “An increasing number of scientists, most particularly a growing number of evolutionists . . . argue that Darwinian evolutionary theory is no genuine scientific theory at all. . . . Many of the critics have the highest intellectual credentials.”—June 25, 1981, p. 828.

Physicist H. S. Lipson said: “The only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it.” (Italics added.)—Physics Bulletin, 1980, Vol. 31, p. 138.

Are those who advocate evolution in agreement? How do these facts make you feel about what they teach?

The introduction to the centennial edition of Darwin’s Origin of Species (London, 1956) says: “As we know, there is a great divergence of opinion among biologists, not only about the causes of evolution but even about the actual process. This divergence exists because the evidence is unsatisfactory and does not permit any certain conclusion. It is therefore right and proper to draw the attention of the non-scientific public to the disagreements about evolution.”—By W. R. Thompson, then director of the Commonwealth Institute of Biological Control, Ottawa, Canada.

“A century after Darwin’s death, we still have not the slightest demonstrable or even plausible idea of how evolution really took place—and in recent years this has led to an extraordinary series of battles over the whole question. . . . A state of almost open war exists among the evolutionists themselves, with every kind of [evolutionary] sect urging some new modification.”—C. Booker (London Times writer), The Star, (Johannesburg), April 20, 1982, p. 19.

The scientific magazine Discover said: “Evolution . . . is not only under attack by fundamentalist Christians, but is also being questioned by reputable scientists. Among paleontologists, scientists who study the fossil record, there is growing dissent.”—October 1980, p. 88.

What view does the fossil record support?

Darwin acknowledged: “If numerous species . . . have really started into life at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of evolution.” (The Origin of Species, New York, 1902, Part Two, p. 83) Does the evidence indicate that “numerous species” came into existence at the same time, or does it point to gradual development, as evolution holds?

Have sufficient fossils been found to draw a sound conclusion?

Smithsonian Institution scientist Porter Kier says: “There are a hundred million fossils, all catalogued and identified, in museums around the world.” (New Scientist, January 15, 1981, p. 129) A Guide to Earth History adds: “By the aid of fossils palaeontologists can now give us an excellent picture of the life of past ages.”—(New York, 1956), Richard Carrington, Mentor edition, p. 48.

What does the fossil record actually show?

The Bulletin of Chicago’s Field Museum of Natural History pointed out: “Darwin’s theory of [evolution] has always been closely linked to evidence from fossils, and probably most people assume that fossils provide a very important part of the general argument that is made in favor of darwinian interpretations of the history of life. Unfortunately, this is not strictly true. . . . the geologic record did not then and still does not yield a finely graduated chain of slow and progressive evolution.”—January 1979, Vol. 50, No. 1, pp. 22, 23.

A View of Life states: “Beginning at the base of the Cambrian period and extending for about 10 million years, all the major groups of skeletonized invertebrates made their first appearance in the most spectacular rise in diversity ever recorded on our planet.”—(California, 1981), Salvador E. Luria, Stephen Jay Gould, Sam Singer, p. 649.

Paleontologist Alfred Romer wrote: “Below this [Cambrian period], there are vast thicknesses of sediments in which the progenitors of the Cambrian forms would be expected. But we do not find them; these older beds are almost barren of evidence of life, and the general picture could reasonably be said to be consistent with the idea of a special creation at the beginning of Cambrian times.”—Natural History, October 1959, p. 467.

Zoologist Harold Coffin states: “If progressive evolution from simple to complex is correct, the ancestors of these full-blown living creatures in the Cambrian should be found; but they have not been found and scientists admit there is little prospect of their ever being found. On the basis of the facts alone, on the basis of what is actually found in the earth, the theory of a sudden creative act in which the major forms of life were established fits best.”—Liberty, September/October 1975, p. 12.

Carl Sagan, in his book Cosmos, candidly acknowledged: “The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great Designer.”—(New York, 1980), p. 29.

Might it be that the evolutionary process took place as a result of mutations, that is, sudden drastic changes in genes?

Science Digest states: “Evolutionary revisionists believe mutations in key regulatory genes may be just the genetic jackhammers their quantum-leap theory requires.” However, the magazine also quotes British zoologist Colin Patterson as stating: “Speculation is free. We know nothing about these regulatory master genes.” (February 1982, p. 92) In other words, there is no evidence to support the theory.

The Encyclopedia Americana acknowledges: “The fact that most mutations are damaging to the organism seems hard to reconcile with the view that mutation is the source of raw materials for evolution. Indeed, mutants illustrated in biology textbooks are a collection of freaks and monstrosities and mutation seems to be a destructive rather than a constructive process.”—(1977), Vol. 10, p. 742.

What about those “ape-men” depicted in schoolbooks, encyclopedias and museums?

“The flesh and hair on such reconstructions have to be filled in by resorting to the imagination. . . . Skin color; the color, form, and distribution of the hair; the form of the features; and the aspect of the face—of these characters we know absolutely nothing for any prehistoric men.”—The Biology of Race (New York, 1971), James C. King, pp. 135, 151.

“The vast majority of artists’ conceptions are based more on imagination than on evidence. . . . Artists must create something between an ape and a human being; the older the specimen is said to be, the more apelike they make it.”—Science Digest, April 1981, p. 41.

“Just as we are slowly learning that primitive men are not necessarily savages, so we must learn to realize that the early men of the Ice Age were neither brute beasts nor semi-apes nor cretins. Hence the ineffable stupidity of all attempts to reconstruct Neanderthal or even Peking man.”—Man, God and Magic (New York, 1961), Ivar Lissner, p. 304.

Do not textbooks present evolution as fact?

“Many scientists succumb to the temptation to be dogmatic, . . . over and over again the question of the origin of the species has been presented as if it were finally settled. Nothing could be further from the truth. . . . But the tendency to be dogmatic persists, and it does no service to the cause of science.”—The Guardian, London, England, December 4, 1980, p. 15.
 
crap, that's a long post!

ok I'll try reading it now
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Upon re reading the statistical information, I realize I was a little off on the number. Here are the quotations regarding it and more comments by scientists regardng evolution.

Could Life Originate by Chance? ***

The proteins needed for life have very complex molecules. What is the chance of even a simple protein molecule forming at random in an organic soup? Evolutionists acknowledge it to be only one in 10113 (1 followed by 113 zeros). But any event that has one chance in just 1050 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening. An idea of the odds, or probability, involved is seen in the fact that the number 10113 is larger than the estimated total number of all the atoms in the universe!

Could Life Originate by Chance? ***

More difficult to obtain than these are nucleotides, the structural units of DNA, which bears the genetic code. Five histones are involved in DNA (histones are thought to be involved in governing the activity of genes). The chance of forming even the simplest of these histones is said to be one in 20100—another huge number “larger than the total of all the atoms in all the stars and galaxies visible in the largest astronomical telescopes.” 15

Could Life Originate by Chance? ***

34 Not all scientists, however, have closed the door on the alternative. For example, physicist H. S. Lipson, realizing the odds against a spontaneous origin for life, said: “The only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it.” He further observed that after Darwin’s book, The Origin of Species, “evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to ‘bend’ their observations to fit in with it.” 30 A sad but true commentary.

35 Chandra Wickramasinghe, professor at University College, Cardiff, said: “From my earliest training as a scientist I was very strongly brainwashed to believe that science cannot be consistent with any kind of deliberate creation. That notion has had to be very painfully shed. I am quite uncomfortable in the situation, the state of mind I now find myself in. But there is no logical way out of it. . . . For life to have been a chemical accident on earth is like looking for a particular grain of sand on all the beaches in all the planets in the universe—and finding it.” In other words, it is just not possible that life could have originated from a chemical accident. So Wickramasinghe concludes: “There is no other way in which we can understand the precise ordering of the chemicals of life except to invoke the creations on a cosmic scale.” 31

36 As astronomer Robert Jastrow said: “Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation
 
Originally posted by VertigoXX@June 27 2002,13:24

And for anyone offended by any of the above, let me reiterate: I have not spoken out against your faith, but merely the organization of men whom you have allowed to dictate what your faith is. Men. Humans. They do not have the voice of god, and their answers may not be and probably are not your own.

Except for the fact that I believe that the Bible (both Old and New Testiment) was [yes, written by men, but] inspired by God and is his infalible and inerant message to us. I do not base my faith on by what men say but by what I gather from the Bible itself on my own. Other men may point out things, but I take it upon myself to research the facts myself.
 
I do not base my faith on by what men say but by what I gather from the Bible itself on my own. Other men may point out things, but I take it upon myself to research the facts myself.

Good for you. Move to the head of the class. It doesn't really matter to me, in the long run, what each of you decides to believe, as long as you have done your homework. What kills me is hearing ideas that do not originate with a real probe into an issue, but rather just repeating what someone else tells you. My main purpose here was to furnish an opposing viewpoint rather than the scientific and religious retoric one so often hears. Plus I love a good arguement!
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Evolutionists acknowledge it to be only one in 10113 (1 followed by 113 zeros).

This statement is rather vacuous. Which evolutionists? Based on what evidence? Under what circumstances? Over what period of time?

But any event that has one chance in just 1050 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening.

This must be some kind of new math where 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 = 0. I'll refrain from trying to debunk this system, since it's clear that it's completely alien to me.
 
Originally posted by VertigoXX@June 27 2002,13:24

"God Thinks" by Voltaire - this song sums up many of my thoughts on all things related to god and politics. When will people realize that god is a completely unfathomable idea and just deal with the fact that ORGANIZED religion is merely men putting their own words in the mouth of "god."

I will point out that as Voltaire was a leader in enlightenment thought, one of their primary missions was the destruction of organized religion as they were adamant man had become a slave to it and it was preventing man's further progress into a perfect being. Voltaire is one of my less respect "great thinkers" somewhere a little under Lenin.

I recall reading of many of those "enlightenment thinkers" busting into churches, disrupting hte mass, driving out the priest, then giving their own "mass" where the homily consisted of explanations about the scientific wonders of the world and the eucharist was replaced by science experaments.

They wanted to turn people's reverence for "father, son, holy ghost" onto "reason, science, and progress" and they were at times rather violent about it.

Then of course you have Diderot who wrote quite possibly the greatest load of crap I have ever seen. It's this amazing work called the encyclopoedia. Basically 1000's of pages presenting the OPINIONS of "englightened thinkers" as absolute fact. When I think about this it's no wonder the 1928 encyclopoedia Britannica talks about eugenics and ethnic cleansing as the future of all mankind and good for the world and mentions Hitler as being a little strict but not such a bad guy.

The only man of the enlightenment who I can't recall any such dirt on would be Rosseau, mostly because after a few years he completely rejected all ideas of the enlightenment and started the short-lived, less than popular, romanticist movement.
 
Originally posted by ExCyber@June 27 2002,14:25

Evolutionists acknowledge it to be only one in 10113 (1 followed by 113 zeros).

This statement is rather vacuous. Which evolutionists? Based on what evidence? Under what circumstances? Over what period of time?

But any event that has one chance in just 1050 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening.

This must be some kind of new math where 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 = 0. I'll refrain from trying to debunk this system, since it's clear that it's completely alien to me.

I believe it is referring to it ever(!!!!!!!!!) having been possible for any ammount of time you want to name. This is talking about mathimatical probabilities. I know that is stating the obviouse but you seemed to have missed that in your rush to post a reply. There is no 'new' math here. Just statistical observation. Ok, maybe your not a statistition. But did you even for a moment consider it is so, or was this the bums rush to dogmatic condemnation. All you have stated is that you don't accept it. You haven't offered any opposing figures to show it is possible. Also if you wish, I can post a pretty complete article that discussed each component needed for spontanious generation of life and whether it is possible. I noted as well that you had no comment on the opinions expressed by several well known and respected members of the scientific community. I would be willing to consider any opposing quotations you have.

by the way, the statistical references are from the book Evolution From Space, by Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe, 1981, pgs 20-28.
 
And the point of that was: These theological vs scientific discussions have been going on for 1000's. Nobody has hit an answer yet and I highly doubt a bunch of Sega groupies on a message board will somehow unravel the mysterie sof the universe in 3 posts per participant a day
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I can't say I support organized religion. Spirituality as a concept however I believe is a beneficial and essential part of everyone's life. If nothing else it gives people a sense of direction and of humility.

I think of one's faith beliefs as a personal experience everyone should discover for themselves. The only belief that seems wrong to me is to just never look in the first place. If you look and find nothing, well that's ok too. It's supposed to be a personal experience. I just hope everyone at some time int heir life takes that first step to investigate and see what they believe rather than relying on others (teachers, churches, etc) to provide all that for them.
 
time for everyone's summary of points made and conclusions already? wow that was a brief debate that lasted a day and had a lot of points all were good i'll say but who am i to judge.
 
Holy Jebus, Falstuff. What a manner of presenting unrelated evidence! First of all, evolution has nothing to do with life springing up from nothing. It deals with morphing of complex species from simpler ones. Speaking of the statistics numbers you wrote, I have seen those several times already, they do not take time into account. Those are the odds of life springing up at any moment in time. Rather inaccurate odds too.

Until someone brings an argument against my previous post, here:
The fact that plants and animals can change over a period of time, the fact that DNA can change over a period of time, that DNA changes are hereditary and that changes in DNA controls the development of plants and animals prove the theory of evolution completely. All of the preceding facts have actually been proven in laboratories, something Creationists have been asking for a long time.
I have nothing more to say on the subject of evolution.
 
Fallstaff, you never answered me regarding whether it was your god rather than any other culture's god, spirits or creator that is responsible for the creation of the universe.

Again I ask you, there have been many creation stories from many cultures: how do you know that the stories in the bible are correct and that everyone else is wrong?

BTW if you want evolution in action today, just look at the rise of antiboitic resistant bacteria.
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I say scientist and priests have a medieval-style battle to for the right to claim history. Largely I say this because all this talking is getting you nowhere, though it is good reading. As is Voltaire.. 'Candide' is a personal favourite of mine
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