Translating Fire Pro Wrestling S : 6Men Scramble
- Thread starter Malenko
- Start date
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- fire pro saturn translation
i'm unfamiliar and out of touch as to where i'd go to get the patch. i plan on running it on my Rhea unit. feeling motivated for possible work tonight.
any assists available?
any assists available?
Malenko
Established Member
LINK: -> FirePro S Translation Project - Google Drive
open the bin/cue in CDMage
right click 2nd.bin, select import , choose the 2nd.bin you downloaded
repeat for 1st.bin
save as a new ISO , copy that ISO to your rhea
EDIT: Im now 15 matches through vitory road heavyweight with the undertaker on actual saturn hardware, no story mode scrolls yet
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heard this might be helpful. just remove the .txt
Malenko
Established Member
clutch, some of those are...not quite right BUT its a big help. There are not enough spaces for a lot of move names.
For example, the 5 you can see in the screen shot are:
09- Low Round Kick
10- Muay Thai Low Kick
11- Middle Kick
12- Center Round Kick
13- Muay Thai Middle Kick
I should have an update this weekend, as its supposed to rain till Sunday so I cant go outside and finish my wife's planter boxes.
For example, the 5 you can see in the screen shot are:
09- Low Round Kick
10- Muay Thai Low Kick
11- Middle Kick
12- Center Round Kick
13- Muay Thai Middle Kick
I should have an update this weekend, as its supposed to rain till Sunday so I cant go outside and finish my wife's planter boxes.
you know, i was thinking about this problem. and after editing and re-editing this post multiple times, i think the following idea is where this should go, so i'm going to try to convince you of it.
Move Name List
The primary purpose of the move list is to create your own wrestler or to create a wrestler based on existing templates. When creating a wrestler with the resources we have (translation guides, this move list, etc), the hardest part is keeping track of what number move you happen to be on in comparison to the list. The second hardest is knowing what moves can cause a critical under what circumstances.
I'd like to argue that the move names are pretty much useless in this. You can hit a button to see a preview of the move in action, or it just plays, i don't remember. Either way, this provides confirmation of what the move will look like, and based on that, you can get the idea of what the move would be called, or what type of move it is.
Unless you're building the wrestler yourself from scratch, you're likely to still have something nearby to help guide you in your build, such as what moves to place in what positions if you're working with a template:
If you're working from a template, the best info to be displayed on screen would be what number move you're at so you can check against your template move number without looking at a guide.
If you're working from scratch, the best info to be displayed on screen would be what moves can cause criticals under what circumstances.
Putting this information together would make it entirely possible to identify a move name using a guide or expedite the creation of a character using a template. Creating your own becomes faster as you can visibly see the move and know if it can critical with the stats you've selected.
Here's an example based on the guide:
Standing C
Standing A+B
15- Forward Flying Dropkick
16- Low Dropkick - Finisher
17- Jumping High Kick - Striking
18- Back Brain Kick (Enzui Giri) - Finisher
19- Koppou Abise Giri (Rolling Kick) - Finisher
20- Kneel Kick (Spin Wheel Kick) - Finisher
21- Flying Kneel Kick (Jumping Spin Wheel Kick)
Would be
Standing C
Standing A+B
15
16 !F
17 !S
18 !F
19 !F
20 !F
21
etc
! = Critical Capable
F = Finisher
S = Striking
M = subMission
T = Technical
P = Power
As there are over 200 moves in certain lists, i can see a potential problem with alignment or the potential to not have enough character spaces (you'd need a total of 5 and i don't think i have measured the "width" of the numbers), but overall this method would provide plenty of on-screen information for someone building a character without being required to look at anything beyond their template, and yet gives them the option of knowing the move name by looking at a guide if they so choose.
Benefits:
1. It would be quick to accomplish
2. It would be uniform and look good in the menu/list
3. It would be incredibly helpful to anyone building out edits from scratch (critical info) or templates (move line number)
I know you've put work into your names already, but PLEASE consider this alternative. as someone who's spent hours on end in 6ms creating edits from templates, i can't tell you how much easier and faster that process would have been if the move numbers were in place. If i lost my place while trying to count lines i'd often have to either start from the top of the list or find a move i easily recognized and check the move list to see what number it was to get my count back in order. No, it isn't the most exciting translation, sure, but i truly believe this would be the most useful choice. and honestly, now that i've thought about it for the last day or two, if you chose to not do it, i'd straight up ask if there would be a way to fork this translation project at the end to include an option where someone could choose to have this version instead.
thanks for your work
Move Name List
The primary purpose of the move list is to create your own wrestler or to create a wrestler based on existing templates. When creating a wrestler with the resources we have (translation guides, this move list, etc), the hardest part is keeping track of what number move you happen to be on in comparison to the list. The second hardest is knowing what moves can cause a critical under what circumstances.
I'd like to argue that the move names are pretty much useless in this. You can hit a button to see a preview of the move in action, or it just plays, i don't remember. Either way, this provides confirmation of what the move will look like, and based on that, you can get the idea of what the move would be called, or what type of move it is.
Unless you're building the wrestler yourself from scratch, you're likely to still have something nearby to help guide you in your build, such as what moves to place in what positions if you're working with a template:
If you're working from a template, the best info to be displayed on screen would be what number move you're at so you can check against your template move number without looking at a guide.
If you're working from scratch, the best info to be displayed on screen would be what moves can cause criticals under what circumstances.
Putting this information together would make it entirely possible to identify a move name using a guide or expedite the creation of a character using a template. Creating your own becomes faster as you can visibly see the move and know if it can critical with the stats you've selected.
Here's an example based on the guide:
Standing C
Standing A+B
15- Forward Flying Dropkick
16- Low Dropkick - Finisher
17- Jumping High Kick - Striking
18- Back Brain Kick (Enzui Giri) - Finisher
19- Koppou Abise Giri (Rolling Kick) - Finisher
20- Kneel Kick (Spin Wheel Kick) - Finisher
21- Flying Kneel Kick (Jumping Spin Wheel Kick)
Would be
Standing C
Standing A+B
15
16 !F
17 !S
18 !F
19 !F
20 !F
21
etc
! = Critical Capable
F = Finisher
S = Striking
M = subMission
T = Technical
P = Power
As there are over 200 moves in certain lists, i can see a potential problem with alignment or the potential to not have enough character spaces (you'd need a total of 5 and i don't think i have measured the "width" of the numbers), but overall this method would provide plenty of on-screen information for someone building a character without being required to look at anything beyond their template, and yet gives them the option of knowing the move name by looking at a guide if they so choose.
Benefits:
1. It would be quick to accomplish
2. It would be uniform and look good in the menu/list
3. It would be incredibly helpful to anyone building out edits from scratch (critical info) or templates (move line number)
I know you've put work into your names already, but PLEASE consider this alternative. as someone who's spent hours on end in 6ms creating edits from templates, i can't tell you how much easier and faster that process would have been if the move numbers were in place. If i lost my place while trying to count lines i'd often have to either start from the top of the list or find a move i easily recognized and check the move list to see what number it was to get my count back in order. No, it isn't the most exciting translation, sure, but i truly believe this would be the most useful choice. and honestly, now that i've thought about it for the last day or two, if you chose to not do it, i'd straight up ask if there would be a way to fork this translation project at the end to include an option where someone could choose to have this version instead.
thanks for your work
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I'm going to be honest.
While I like what you ended up with, I still think it is far less useful than what I suggested. If you add in what I suggested to what you've got, you may have a winner. But after 2 days of thinking about it and remembering all the pain I endured building wrestlers from templates, I was quickly reminded of why I never attempted to rebuild my save data when I first noticed it was lost 10-15 years ago.
The line numbers and critical info is far more valuable on screen than the names, as good as what you did looks. Also, later down the list you'll have some moves that still won't fit and would need abbreviations anyway. I think it is a far better use of the space providing usable information there instead.
As some incentive, I spent the last week or so tracking down every edit I could find going back as far as I could. I'm going to be comparing them all and eliminating the duplicates (literally the same template listed in more than one place, not just multiple versions of the same character).
I have a ridiculous amount of characters and I plan on trying to build them all out and take photos of them.
Doing it the way I'm suggesting will straight up help me move through this process faster. I HATE building edits from templates because of how often I lose my place.
I'm all for your changes and naming so long as it is secondary to line numbers and critical info.
Thanks again for your work on this.
And yes, I'm in the discord but mainly I'm in the redump discord more than anything else.
While I like what you ended up with, I still think it is far less useful than what I suggested. If you add in what I suggested to what you've got, you may have a winner. But after 2 days of thinking about it and remembering all the pain I endured building wrestlers from templates, I was quickly reminded of why I never attempted to rebuild my save data when I first noticed it was lost 10-15 years ago.
The line numbers and critical info is far more valuable on screen than the names, as good as what you did looks. Also, later down the list you'll have some moves that still won't fit and would need abbreviations anyway. I think it is a far better use of the space providing usable information there instead.
As some incentive, I spent the last week or so tracking down every edit I could find going back as far as I could. I'm going to be comparing them all and eliminating the duplicates (literally the same template listed in more than one place, not just multiple versions of the same character).
I have a ridiculous amount of characters and I plan on trying to build them all out and take photos of them.
Doing it the way I'm suggesting will straight up help me move through this process faster. I HATE building edits from templates because of how often I lose my place.
I'm all for your changes and naming so long as it is secondary to line numbers and critical info.
Thanks again for your work on this.
And yes, I'm in the discord but mainly I'm in the redump discord more than anything else.
Malenko
Established Member
So line numbers may help you, but it wont help people who don't have all the moves unlocked.
I can add (s) for striking, (f) for finisher, (t) for technical , etc but what you propose will most likely hit character limits too
I am going to follow the translated move guide you provided as close as possible, so I doubt you'll get lost. However, once everything is done, I'll go back and do a couple of moves your way. Then you can use that as a base for your fork to name the moves as you see fit. I see the merit in your way, but prefer my way (and adding the finisher flag at the end from your way)
Using the "draw 2 English letters on a Japanese tile" method, I can get more letters on the controls too:
I can add (s) for striking, (f) for finisher, (t) for technical , etc but what you propose will most likely hit character limits too
I am going to follow the translated move guide you provided as close as possible, so I doubt you'll get lost. However, once everything is done, I'll go back and do a couple of moves your way. Then you can use that as a base for your fork to name the moves as you see fit. I see the merit in your way, but prefer my way (and adding the finisher flag at the end from your way)
Using the "draw 2 English letters on a Japanese tile" method, I can get more letters on the controls too:
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This gets a bit long and debate style. I want to make sure that you know your work is appreciated and i am really excited it's getting off the ground. That said, i feel pretty strong about this still and hope i can use the arguments below to convince you:
Before i get started, that screenshot for the controls side looks amazing. thanks for all you're doing. this is one of the games that got me in to saturn.
Alright, here it goes:
i don't remember there being locked out moves in S. i think that was a thing that started in G or D. there are definitely hidden characters/wrestlers that unlock, and the same goes with style techniques (Giant, Panther Vicious), and you get more edit points, but i'm fairly certain all the normal moves are available from the start, so line numbers shouldn't change much, if at all.
UPDATE: re-read the kagura guide and he mentions that some counters are locked out until you beat everything. I think what was meant was counter style, and not counter moves, which coincides with the styles that were locked out and why the move list doesn't mention missing or unlocked moves.
Pros to using move list line numbers and critical type:
- gives a consistent look,
- provides good info that replaces a move list guide or can turn a move list into secondary info
- isn't redundant or wasted potential space. (move names have a bit of redundancy considering you have a visual performance of the move).
- helps make the process of creating edits or following templates faster and easier/less prone to mistakes
- factual and objective
- not as vulnerable to character space limitations based on your recent work
- - The longest amount of characters would be five:
- - - up to three for the move number in 001 format,
- - - two more for if the move crits: one for the crit symbol (!) and one for what category of crit.
- - - for a cleaner look one could put a space between the (!) and the crit type.
- could be formatted in such a way so that the leading zeros provide even more information for the user:
- - if there are 0 - 9 moves in the list, skip the leading zero. (1-9)
- - if there are 10 - 99 moves in the list, add a single leading zero (01-99)
- - if there are 100 moves or more in the list, add a second leading zero (001-229)
- allows 6ms's Edit mode to avoid criticism and negative comparisons to Returns or World.
Negatives to using move list numbers and critical type:
- the list becomes a lot less descriptive (but the move preview speaks MUCH louder than words could anyway)
- It's kind of boring to look at if you're reading the list (and move lists on the internet are much better for consumption like that anyway, and you don't spend a ton of time in the Edit area if you aren't working on an edit).
Pros for what you've created:
- Snazzy looking. Seriously, it looks great.
- People don't HAVE to watch the preview to know what the move is.
- You like it better, and you're the creator, so this is a big plus.
Negatives for putting up move names in the list:
- Move names are subjective, and not objective
- - Debates about what a move should be called could erupt
- - should a case be made that is valid for a different move name or abbreviation, you'll have to decide if you'll update or not
- - Only you ultimately decide if a name makes it to the translation or not. people may not agree with your choices here
- - Even if you strive to be 100% accurate with the name of a move, researching it to know you're right, you still likely need to abbreviate anyway.
- Not all the proper names will fit in the space, so you're going to have abbreviations anyway.
- - Abbreviations means someone has to know how you think or look at a guide to learn the abbreviations, so we can't get rid of it
- - adding a few line numbers gives an inconsistent look to the list, even if it helps.
- 6ms's Edit mode hasn't aged well, and the move list with names can't look good compared to move lists in Returns or World.
- If there are no move numbers in the list and the move names are different from the documents out there, templates become harder to follow
Arguments:
Subjective vs Objective lists
as cool as the names would be to have, a lot of the name aspect is subjective. You're the only one who'd get to decide what each move is called, and people would have to pick your brain or have some sort of guide to how you chose to name things. If someone corrects your naming or provides a better option for the name of a move, you'd be put into a position where you'd have to decide if you like their name AND if you're willing to put in the correction. If multiple people have arguments about different names, you're still the only one who decides. How much research are you willing to put into the history of each move to get a 100% authentic and accurate name for a move, and then find the best possible way to squeeze that name into the space 6ms provides?
Now compare that to this:
Move line numbers don't change. the lists have been the same for 23 years. What moves can cause criticals and under what categories are also set in stone (unless you find the pieces to manipulate that, in which case i suppose you could do further tweaks beyond just a translation). Once done in a line number/critical ability manner, there's nothing open to interpretation or subject to opinion. within the game itself, everything for the move list is 100% factual and not up to debate. Once done, it will never need to be touched again.
Purpose of the list, and time spent there:
The move list is a utility for the creation of characters. People don't spend a lot of time in edit area because making edits in 6ms TEDIOUS. They get in, they make their edit or follow their template, they save, and they go. Not many want to hang out in the move list all day, they would rather get out and see their edit in action. seeing all the move names in a list is cool, but once they've made their character, they're done and out, and likely won't visit again unless they're making another character, which again is a TEDIOUS process. no matter how much time or effort or thoughtfulness or cleverness you put in to that list, it will get used for a short while and not really appreciated beyond that.
This is a section of the game where doing as much as you are leads to diminishing returns.
Changing or abbreviating the name without having the number makes it all that more difficult to look up if someone wanted the proper name. if someone really wants to know what a move is called, they can cross-reference a much more robust move name in an updated guide...by the line number! The updated move list/guide would have no limitations on the name. As far as the game itself is concerned, there will be no need for compromises or abbreviations because of long names, and you won't be subjected to people trying to tell you that you should name a move something else.
Going against established norms
Creating your own names for moves, regardless of how much more "correct" your version of a move name may be, you literally break 21 years of established precedent based entirely on what you like more and how much space you have. the move list i uploaded here gives names of moves to consider for an Edit, sure, but most importantly it gives a number to count to find said move so one can get there quickly and get this part over with. Templates put out since 6ms came out include a number and a move name next to it. on screen, If you don't include the number but instead leave it with your own move name, the templates can't be as easily followed.
If the move list is left in japanese, you count a certain number of presses of down on the d-pad and you should be at your move even if you can't read it. If it is translated but doesn't match the guides, you still count the presses, but instead of a language you can't read, you're faced with another interpretation of the move name, affected by limitation of character spaces in the game (abbreviations, short hand renames, etc), but still in english. confused, you check the guide and think you're not in the right place because the guide doesn't match the game and there's no guiding number to tell you that you're on the right move. This is a VERY poor user experience, and we should always be thinking about the user experience first when designing or changing UI elements.
The move list is pretty established so the fact that you can't match it exactly in game, and the fact that it isn't 100% correct, means that you're essentially making one of the biggest established reference pieces for 6ms obsolete...except you can't really do it justice because of the lack of letter space, so it doesn't do away with the need for a guide anyway, even if you're building out from a template.
Imaging having to deal with 200+ templates like the snippets below using the named list:
Can you see how potentially painful this becomes?
Before i get started, that screenshot for the controls side looks amazing. thanks for all you're doing. this is one of the games that got me in to saturn.
Alright, here it goes:
i don't remember there being locked out moves in S. i think that was a thing that started in G or D. there are definitely hidden characters/wrestlers that unlock, and the same goes with style techniques (Giant, Panther Vicious), and you get more edit points, but i'm fairly certain all the normal moves are available from the start, so line numbers shouldn't change much, if at all.
UPDATE: re-read the kagura guide and he mentions that some counters are locked out until you beat everything. I think what was meant was counter style, and not counter moves, which coincides with the styles that were locked out and why the move list doesn't mention missing or unlocked moves.
Pros to using move list line numbers and critical type:
- gives a consistent look,
- provides good info that replaces a move list guide or can turn a move list into secondary info
- isn't redundant or wasted potential space. (move names have a bit of redundancy considering you have a visual performance of the move).
- helps make the process of creating edits or following templates faster and easier/less prone to mistakes
- factual and objective
- not as vulnerable to character space limitations based on your recent work
- - The longest amount of characters would be five:
- - - up to three for the move number in 001 format,
- - - two more for if the move crits: one for the crit symbol (!) and one for what category of crit.
- - - for a cleaner look one could put a space between the (!) and the crit type.
- could be formatted in such a way so that the leading zeros provide even more information for the user:
- - if there are 0 - 9 moves in the list, skip the leading zero. (1-9)
- - if there are 10 - 99 moves in the list, add a single leading zero (01-99)
- - if there are 100 moves or more in the list, add a second leading zero (001-229)
- allows 6ms's Edit mode to avoid criticism and negative comparisons to Returns or World.
Negatives to using move list numbers and critical type:
- the list becomes a lot less descriptive (but the move preview speaks MUCH louder than words could anyway)
- It's kind of boring to look at if you're reading the list (and move lists on the internet are much better for consumption like that anyway, and you don't spend a ton of time in the Edit area if you aren't working on an edit).
Pros for what you've created:
- Snazzy looking. Seriously, it looks great.
- People don't HAVE to watch the preview to know what the move is.
- You like it better, and you're the creator, so this is a big plus.
Negatives for putting up move names in the list:
- Move names are subjective, and not objective
- - Debates about what a move should be called could erupt
- - should a case be made that is valid for a different move name or abbreviation, you'll have to decide if you'll update or not
- - Only you ultimately decide if a name makes it to the translation or not. people may not agree with your choices here
- - Even if you strive to be 100% accurate with the name of a move, researching it to know you're right, you still likely need to abbreviate anyway.
- Not all the proper names will fit in the space, so you're going to have abbreviations anyway.
- - Abbreviations means someone has to know how you think or look at a guide to learn the abbreviations, so we can't get rid of it
- - adding a few line numbers gives an inconsistent look to the list, even if it helps.
- 6ms's Edit mode hasn't aged well, and the move list with names can't look good compared to move lists in Returns or World.
- If there are no move numbers in the list and the move names are different from the documents out there, templates become harder to follow
Arguments:
Subjective vs Objective lists
as cool as the names would be to have, a lot of the name aspect is subjective. You're the only one who'd get to decide what each move is called, and people would have to pick your brain or have some sort of guide to how you chose to name things. If someone corrects your naming or provides a better option for the name of a move, you'd be put into a position where you'd have to decide if you like their name AND if you're willing to put in the correction. If multiple people have arguments about different names, you're still the only one who decides. How much research are you willing to put into the history of each move to get a 100% authentic and accurate name for a move, and then find the best possible way to squeeze that name into the space 6ms provides?
Now compare that to this:
Move line numbers don't change. the lists have been the same for 23 years. What moves can cause criticals and under what categories are also set in stone (unless you find the pieces to manipulate that, in which case i suppose you could do further tweaks beyond just a translation). Once done in a line number/critical ability manner, there's nothing open to interpretation or subject to opinion. within the game itself, everything for the move list is 100% factual and not up to debate. Once done, it will never need to be touched again.
Purpose of the list, and time spent there:
The move list is a utility for the creation of characters. People don't spend a lot of time in edit area because making edits in 6ms TEDIOUS. They get in, they make their edit or follow their template, they save, and they go. Not many want to hang out in the move list all day, they would rather get out and see their edit in action. seeing all the move names in a list is cool, but once they've made their character, they're done and out, and likely won't visit again unless they're making another character, which again is a TEDIOUS process. no matter how much time or effort or thoughtfulness or cleverness you put in to that list, it will get used for a short while and not really appreciated beyond that.
This is a section of the game where doing as much as you are leads to diminishing returns.
Changing or abbreviating the name without having the number makes it all that more difficult to look up if someone wanted the proper name. if someone really wants to know what a move is called, they can cross-reference a much more robust move name in an updated guide...by the line number! The updated move list/guide would have no limitations on the name. As far as the game itself is concerned, there will be no need for compromises or abbreviations because of long names, and you won't be subjected to people trying to tell you that you should name a move something else.
Going against established norms
Creating your own names for moves, regardless of how much more "correct" your version of a move name may be, you literally break 21 years of established precedent based entirely on what you like more and how much space you have. the move list i uploaded here gives names of moves to consider for an Edit, sure, but most importantly it gives a number to count to find said move so one can get there quickly and get this part over with. Templates put out since 6ms came out include a number and a move name next to it. on screen, If you don't include the number but instead leave it with your own move name, the templates can't be as easily followed.
If the move list is left in japanese, you count a certain number of presses of down on the d-pad and you should be at your move even if you can't read it. If it is translated but doesn't match the guides, you still count the presses, but instead of a language you can't read, you're faced with another interpretation of the move name, affected by limitation of character spaces in the game (abbreviations, short hand renames, etc), but still in english. confused, you check the guide and think you're not in the right place because the guide doesn't match the game and there's no guiding number to tell you that you're on the right move. This is a VERY poor user experience, and we should always be thinking about the user experience first when designing or changing UI elements.
The move list is pretty established so the fact that you can't match it exactly in game, and the fact that it isn't 100% correct, means that you're essentially making one of the biggest established reference pieces for 6ms obsolete...except you can't really do it justice because of the lack of letter space, so it doesn't do away with the need for a guide anyway, even if you're building out from a template.
Imaging having to deal with 200+ templates like the snippets below using the named list:
Can you see how potentially painful this becomes?
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part 2:
Mimicking Returns and World poorly due to technical limitations vs fixing a problem and making the UI better
The character creation in 6ms is far more limited than what is available in modern fire pro games, such as Returns or World, so Edit mode in 6ms isn't going to bring a lot of people in, named moves or not. when working from scratch, the fact that each move is animated gives the editor all they need to know about what the move is and if they think the edit they are trying to make should have that move. Having the crit ability and type tells the editor if that move has a crit property, and having the number will give them a reference to where to look if they want more information on the name or history of the move.
if a person is working from a template, the numbers for the move is listed in the template, and there is no need for a move list guide at all if they follow the template exactly. having the numbers would make making edits from templates a breeze.
Does what you did look good? yes, absolutely, no question, and it is what 6ms should have looked like 23 years ago.
But it also:
- goes against what has established in the past
- is a lot of work that won't be able to properly reflect the names of some of these moves anyway
- is incredibly subjective/opinion driven instead of objective/fact driven
- creates potential for debate of the move names as a result of the previous point
- could cause the need for constant updates long after it's finished because of the previous point
- is for a section of the game that won't get used a lot by casuals except when building based on a template, where the numbers are more important, or from scratch, where crit info is more important.
- in no way really eliminates the need for the move list guide, but instead creates the need to update the 20+ year old guide with your abbreviations and changes to the move list based on limitations
- does little to improve the edit making process.
The only way i see doing it the way you are would work is if you didn't have to squeeze or abbreviate, and instead could give each move the full name with no compromises. it would require you to change the programing of the game so that you had unlimited character to write the name with, and you'd have to find a way to implement some sort of side scroll so that the whole name could be seen. And even then, i'd still want to see a move number and crit ability, because that info is far more valuable than a name.
A challenge/Experiment: Try building edits using both your version and my version of the 6ms Edit UI to experience what the end user would.
I have around 200+ character templates that i'm truly not looking forward toward building out edits on, but am willing to do so because of the work you've put in.
I'd like for you to try the following:
1: Make 2 builds of 6ms: one with the list done your way, and with the list done the way i'm suggesting. The way i'm suggesting won't take long to complete i promise, even if it is boring.
2: When you're done with both builds, take 5 templates i provide and recreate them in both versions so you're directly using the UI the way most people would.
3: Create an edit of Dean Malenko (head/body 182 in 6ms) from scratch, focusing only on the move list and using only what you have on screen (no move lists). Try to take note or be aware of how often you use the name or move number vs the animation to pick out your moves. b
4: Create a template of your version of Malenko and use that template to recreate the character in each build. I believe i have a blank copy of The Mysterious Kagura's 6ms Edit template v5.0c, and i can also provide 6msEdit if you have a win 98/win xp virtual machine.
Rules:
You should use a timer to keep track of how long it take to build each Edit.
Use only the template and what you have on the screen, no move guide.
Do all of the challenge with your screen type first, then try it with the move number/crit info i'm presenting.
When you're done, tell me how it goes. Ask yourself honestly, which experience was faster, easier, more efficient, and better overall. Tell me how many times you referenced the name you gave a move vs how many times you referenced the move line number.
I feel like this challenge gives you a pretty good approximation for the actual use of this part of the game, and once you're really deep into this area you'll understand why the no-nonsense approach may be boring to look at and not as descriptive, but is a whole lot more efficient both in programing/hacking as well as usable for the end users.
Don't get me wrong: i like what you came up with, it does look good. i just think it's a lot of work for very little actual benefit to the end users, and i really think the more important aspect of translating 6ms is the end user experience for each section of the game.
Mimicking Returns and World poorly due to technical limitations vs fixing a problem and making the UI better
The character creation in 6ms is far more limited than what is available in modern fire pro games, such as Returns or World, so Edit mode in 6ms isn't going to bring a lot of people in, named moves or not. when working from scratch, the fact that each move is animated gives the editor all they need to know about what the move is and if they think the edit they are trying to make should have that move. Having the crit ability and type tells the editor if that move has a crit property, and having the number will give them a reference to where to look if they want more information on the name or history of the move.
if a person is working from a template, the numbers for the move is listed in the template, and there is no need for a move list guide at all if they follow the template exactly. having the numbers would make making edits from templates a breeze.
Does what you did look good? yes, absolutely, no question, and it is what 6ms should have looked like 23 years ago.
But it also:
- goes against what has established in the past
- is a lot of work that won't be able to properly reflect the names of some of these moves anyway
- is incredibly subjective/opinion driven instead of objective/fact driven
- creates potential for debate of the move names as a result of the previous point
- could cause the need for constant updates long after it's finished because of the previous point
- is for a section of the game that won't get used a lot by casuals except when building based on a template, where the numbers are more important, or from scratch, where crit info is more important.
- in no way really eliminates the need for the move list guide, but instead creates the need to update the 20+ year old guide with your abbreviations and changes to the move list based on limitations
- does little to improve the edit making process.
The only way i see doing it the way you are would work is if you didn't have to squeeze or abbreviate, and instead could give each move the full name with no compromises. it would require you to change the programing of the game so that you had unlimited character to write the name with, and you'd have to find a way to implement some sort of side scroll so that the whole name could be seen. And even then, i'd still want to see a move number and crit ability, because that info is far more valuable than a name.
A challenge/Experiment: Try building edits using both your version and my version of the 6ms Edit UI to experience what the end user would.
I have around 200+ character templates that i'm truly not looking forward toward building out edits on, but am willing to do so because of the work you've put in.
I'd like for you to try the following:
1: Make 2 builds of 6ms: one with the list done your way, and with the list done the way i'm suggesting. The way i'm suggesting won't take long to complete i promise, even if it is boring.
2: When you're done with both builds, take 5 templates i provide and recreate them in both versions so you're directly using the UI the way most people would.
3: Create an edit of Dean Malenko (head/body 182 in 6ms) from scratch, focusing only on the move list and using only what you have on screen (no move lists). Try to take note or be aware of how often you use the name or move number vs the animation to pick out your moves. b
4: Create a template of your version of Malenko and use that template to recreate the character in each build. I believe i have a blank copy of The Mysterious Kagura's 6ms Edit template v5.0c, and i can also provide 6msEdit if you have a win 98/win xp virtual machine.
Rules:
You should use a timer to keep track of how long it take to build each Edit.
Use only the template and what you have on the screen, no move guide.
Do all of the challenge with your screen type first, then try it with the move number/crit info i'm presenting.
When you're done, tell me how it goes. Ask yourself honestly, which experience was faster, easier, more efficient, and better overall. Tell me how many times you referenced the name you gave a move vs how many times you referenced the move line number.
I feel like this challenge gives you a pretty good approximation for the actual use of this part of the game, and once you're really deep into this area you'll understand why the no-nonsense approach may be boring to look at and not as descriptive, but is a whole lot more efficient both in programing/hacking as well as usable for the end users.
Don't get me wrong: i like what you came up with, it does look good. i just think it's a lot of work for very little actual benefit to the end users, and i really think the more important aspect of translating 6ms is the end user experience for each section of the game.
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Malenko
Established Member
I can counter *most* of what you write with something I already typed:
"I am going to follow the translated move guide you provided as close as possible "
for example:
104 - Ganso (Original) Power Bomb = GansoBomb
When I say some move names are wrong, they are just wrong. It sucks the movelist wasn't corrected but I'm not going to put the wrong name in this just because someone else messed up 2 decades ago.
Easiest example is:
Rope Slingshot to Out of Bounds C
06- La Quebrada (Moonsault off middle rope to outside)
A "La Quebrada" aka Quebrada aka Lionsault is a middle rope moonsault *INSIDE* the ring. When you springboard from the ropes to the outside its an Asai Moonsault ; popularized by the Ultimo Dragon.
As stated before when I'm done with the translation, I will go through and rename all of the first moves to your standard and show you exactly how to change the rest to fit your liking.
You are going to run into a HUGE problem, and its the main reason I don't want to do things that way. Any move that shows up in multiple lists only gets named one time in the files. Your standing A move 001 is also your standing C / A+B move 028
so your standing C / A+B is going to look like this:
Standing C
Standing A+B
01!S
02!F
03!S
04!S
05!S
06!S
07!F
08!F
09
10!F
11
12
13
14
15
16!F
17!S
18!F
19!F
20!F
21
22!F
23
24
25!T
26!F
27
01
02
03
04!F
05
06
07
08
09
10
11
12
13
It gets even worse in the grapple slots
"I am going to follow the translated move guide you provided as close as possible "
for example:
104 - Ganso (Original) Power Bomb = GansoBomb
When I say some move names are wrong, they are just wrong. It sucks the movelist wasn't corrected but I'm not going to put the wrong name in this just because someone else messed up 2 decades ago.
Easiest example is:
Rope Slingshot to Out of Bounds C
06- La Quebrada (Moonsault off middle rope to outside)
A "La Quebrada" aka Quebrada aka Lionsault is a middle rope moonsault *INSIDE* the ring. When you springboard from the ropes to the outside its an Asai Moonsault ; popularized by the Ultimo Dragon.
As stated before when I'm done with the translation, I will go through and rename all of the first moves to your standard and show you exactly how to change the rest to fit your liking.
You are going to run into a HUGE problem, and its the main reason I don't want to do things that way. Any move that shows up in multiple lists only gets named one time in the files. Your standing A move 001 is also your standing C / A+B move 028
so your standing C / A+B is going to look like this:
Standing C
Standing A+B
01!S
02!F
03!S
04!S
05!S
06!S
07!F
08!F
09
10!F
11
12
13
14
15
16!F
17!S
18!F
19!F
20!F
21
22!F
23
24
25!T
26!F
27
01
02
03
04!F
05
06
07
08
09
10
11
12
13
It gets even worse in the grapple slots
nope.
Standing C/AB looks like this:
01!S
02!F
03!S
04!S
05!S
06!S
07!F
08!F
09
10!F
11
12
13
14
15
16!F
17!S
18!F
19!F
20!F
21
22!F
23
24
25!T
26!F
27
28
29
30
31!F
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
You need to think of each list as it's own entity, and not as one giant list. "Grapple A" has each move with a different number set than "Grapple C", even if some moves are the same in both. the issue isn't the moves being "named" with a number (so that each move always has the same number). We're not trying to name the moves with a number, we're trying to provide a reference for what row number a person is on within the list.
Think of this less like a name for an individual move and more like rows in a spreadsheet. Standing A/B or Standing C/A+B are columns in the spreadsheet.
In this case, we're trying to help guide the user to select the row they want from the column they are looking at.
There are 29 move lists in the game if my count is right.
Let's pick the move list (column) called "Grapple A"
This move list contains 41 moves (rows). I want the move called "Dragon Screw (Leg Whip)". It is found in the cell located at the 30th row of this list.
Let's pick the move list (column) called "Grapple C/A+B".
This move list (column) contains 229 Moves (rows). This move list contains the entirety of the move list called "Grapple A" and the moves are in the same order, however the "Grapple A" moves are tacked on to the end of the "Grapple C/A+B" list, which means each of those moves are found in a different row number for the "Grapple C/A+B" column than they were located for the "Grapple A" list. If i wanted to find a "Dragon Screw (Leg Whip) out of the "Grapple C/A+B" move list, i'd find it in the cell located at row 218. If i have a template that calls for "Grapple A+B" to have a value of 218, i'd get a dragon screw.
And that's all i'm trying to get to happen: give solid reference points to let a user know what "row" in the list (column) they are looking in, while maintaining a clean and consistent look and providing as much information as possible within the limited space provided by the game.
Because seriously, no one cares what the move NAME is when creating the edit. they care about what action is taken by their character when a move is performed. They care about WHERE the move is in the list, or if it's in the list they are looking in at all. Could the names help? sure, they could, if you didn't have a list of move names elsewhere. But actions and pictures speak volumes more than words, and we have previews that speak volumes more to what a move is than the name ever will. So why waste the space or put in the effort for something that is already outclassed two different ways? The preview is a better indicator of what a move does than the name can, and a move list outside of the game would provide uncompromised names with the potential for move history where there really isn't the space in game to do it justice.
That's why the visual preview more than makes up for the lack of a name. It doesn't matter what the move is called, it matters what the character being made does on the screen. it matters if the move performed can or can not critical, and it matters if the move listed in the template they are building from can be found quickly and easily on screen without needing to count. And consistancy in presentation doesn't hurt one bit.
the space is better used as a reference point telling the user what row in the list (column) they are on, how many moves are in the specific list (column) they are looking at, if the move can critical or not, and if it does crit, under what crit category.
That's 4 pieces of information that a name alone can't provide, all done with no more than 5 characters in a line, 6 if we want to get nice and clean looking.
You don't have to counter anything: You can call the moves whatever you want and no one has to agree or disagree with you, so long as the numbers are there in the game. hell, i'm even willing to update the templates that are out there with the move names you want to use so that it matches. but putting in abbreviated names instead of numbers isn't user friendly nor does it give a consistent look. it still ends up being subjective instead of objective. it still looks like a poor attempt at matching Returns or World when 6ms simply can't look that good. I really think the way to make this work is to play to 6ms' strengths and to make up for it's weaknesses, not highlight them further.
Obviously, you're going to do what you want. I'm begging you, try out the challenge i put forth and tell me if you really think the way you want to do it provides a superior end user experience. if you can honestly say your way is better, i'll drop off the thread and leave you be. i literally haven't touched the game much in 10+ years because of this specific scenario, and you have the power and knowledge to fix it.
Because of your announcement, i was reached out to. because of your work, i spent about a week going through my files to pull out templates, and then went through the depths of the internet archive and geocities sites to pull out any and all templates i could find. i was spinning up a windows 98 or xp virtual machine to use 6ms Edit again, create a list of all the characters and who created them, and put them up on a site. I was going to create every single edit and take screenshots so that the absolute best could be included in the save data. Because you're doing the work that matters to me, for one of the games that made me decide to get a saturn. I was genuinely excited to do this.
any excitement i had about updating and fixing edit templates pretty much evaporates if i have to count individual button presses to create characters to ensure the move lists are right. I'm also not super interested in maintaining a second version just so i can build edits easier. The moment you make an update, i'd have to do the same to keep up. If you were willing to keep 2 builds, one as a "builder/edit maker" edition and the other with a named move list, that could solve the problem, but i don't want to ask you to do double the work either.
i'm grateful for the opportunity to have tried to convince you, and i'm grateful for the work you're doing. i've spent way too much time trying to show you why this is a better way, and i don't think i'm going to get any further
Standing C/AB looks like this:
01!S
02!F
03!S
04!S
05!S
06!S
07!F
08!F
09
10!F
11
12
13
14
15
16!F
17!S
18!F
19!F
20!F
21
22!F
23
24
25!T
26!F
27
28
29
30
31!F
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
You need to think of each list as it's own entity, and not as one giant list. "Grapple A" has each move with a different number set than "Grapple C", even if some moves are the same in both. the issue isn't the moves being "named" with a number (so that each move always has the same number). We're not trying to name the moves with a number, we're trying to provide a reference for what row number a person is on within the list.
Think of this less like a name for an individual move and more like rows in a spreadsheet. Standing A/B or Standing C/A+B are columns in the spreadsheet.
In this case, we're trying to help guide the user to select the row they want from the column they are looking at.
There are 29 move lists in the game if my count is right.
Let's pick the move list (column) called "Grapple A"
This move list contains 41 moves (rows). I want the move called "Dragon Screw (Leg Whip)". It is found in the cell located at the 30th row of this list.
Let's pick the move list (column) called "Grapple C/A+B".
This move list (column) contains 229 Moves (rows). This move list contains the entirety of the move list called "Grapple A" and the moves are in the same order, however the "Grapple A" moves are tacked on to the end of the "Grapple C/A+B" list, which means each of those moves are found in a different row number for the "Grapple C/A+B" column than they were located for the "Grapple A" list. If i wanted to find a "Dragon Screw (Leg Whip) out of the "Grapple C/A+B" move list, i'd find it in the cell located at row 218. If i have a template that calls for "Grapple A+B" to have a value of 218, i'd get a dragon screw.
And that's all i'm trying to get to happen: give solid reference points to let a user know what "row" in the list (column) they are looking in, while maintaining a clean and consistent look and providing as much information as possible within the limited space provided by the game.
Because seriously, no one cares what the move NAME is when creating the edit. they care about what action is taken by their character when a move is performed. They care about WHERE the move is in the list, or if it's in the list they are looking in at all. Could the names help? sure, they could, if you didn't have a list of move names elsewhere. But actions and pictures speak volumes more than words, and we have previews that speak volumes more to what a move is than the name ever will. So why waste the space or put in the effort for something that is already outclassed two different ways? The preview is a better indicator of what a move does than the name can, and a move list outside of the game would provide uncompromised names with the potential for move history where there really isn't the space in game to do it justice.
That's why the visual preview more than makes up for the lack of a name. It doesn't matter what the move is called, it matters what the character being made does on the screen. it matters if the move performed can or can not critical, and it matters if the move listed in the template they are building from can be found quickly and easily on screen without needing to count. And consistancy in presentation doesn't hurt one bit.
the space is better used as a reference point telling the user what row in the list (column) they are on, how many moves are in the specific list (column) they are looking at, if the move can critical or not, and if it does crit, under what crit category.
That's 4 pieces of information that a name alone can't provide, all done with no more than 5 characters in a line, 6 if we want to get nice and clean looking.
You don't have to counter anything: You can call the moves whatever you want and no one has to agree or disagree with you, so long as the numbers are there in the game. hell, i'm even willing to update the templates that are out there with the move names you want to use so that it matches. but putting in abbreviated names instead of numbers isn't user friendly nor does it give a consistent look. it still ends up being subjective instead of objective. it still looks like a poor attempt at matching Returns or World when 6ms simply can't look that good. I really think the way to make this work is to play to 6ms' strengths and to make up for it's weaknesses, not highlight them further.
Obviously, you're going to do what you want. I'm begging you, try out the challenge i put forth and tell me if you really think the way you want to do it provides a superior end user experience. if you can honestly say your way is better, i'll drop off the thread and leave you be. i literally haven't touched the game much in 10+ years because of this specific scenario, and you have the power and knowledge to fix it.
Because of your announcement, i was reached out to. because of your work, i spent about a week going through my files to pull out templates, and then went through the depths of the internet archive and geocities sites to pull out any and all templates i could find. i was spinning up a windows 98 or xp virtual machine to use 6ms Edit again, create a list of all the characters and who created them, and put them up on a site. I was going to create every single edit and take screenshots so that the absolute best could be included in the save data. Because you're doing the work that matters to me, for one of the games that made me decide to get a saturn. I was genuinely excited to do this.
any excitement i had about updating and fixing edit templates pretty much evaporates if i have to count individual button presses to create characters to ensure the move lists are right. I'm also not super interested in maintaining a second version just so i can build edits easier. The moment you make an update, i'd have to do the same to keep up. If you were willing to keep 2 builds, one as a "builder/edit maker" edition and the other with a named move list, that could solve the problem, but i don't want to ask you to do double the work either.
i'm grateful for the opportunity to have tried to convince you, and i'm grateful for the work you're doing. i've spent way too much time trying to show you why this is a better way, and i don't think i'm going to get any further
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and yet not everyone will have the tools to do that to their own, or want to bother. and the saves created aren't going to be to everyone's liking, so it isn't like they replace edit templates. plus i've collected more edit templates than there are slots available for a single save.
and if someone wants to create their own edit, there's more information provided in a cleaner way by doing a row number against an offline move list than there is with the moves named on screen, especially since each move has a preview. Plus when their edit is done, if they want to share it with the world, a template is a safer route than doing save editing or manipulation.
i know it isn't what malenko wants to do, which is why i'm basically done with trying. it isn't worth the frustration to create all these guys if i can't do it quickly, and a named move list just doesn't work for this purpose no matter how good it may look. 6ms isn't World and the provided space just isn't enough.
Honestly, the entire move list could be done right now because there's no need to think about a name or how to abbreviate it to fit in the space. With the row/move number being absolute, i could literally write out the entire move list in like 15 minutes.
in fact, i'm going to do just that, in the spreadsheet.
Doing a version with a space between the row number and the crit icon. Honestly, as much as i love the Critical! exclamation point, it isn't needed. the letter telling the user what category of critical conveys the fact that the move can critical at all, so the ! is redundant and would only be useful for nostalgic purposes.
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slinga
Established Member
I need some help understanding how the moves are encoded. When looking at the save in a hex editor, offset 0x72 from the start of a create a wrestler (add 0x18 from start of save file to get to the first create a wrestler) there is an array of 56 moves. Each move is two bytes long. I believe the order matches what's in the "Act" screen.
The second byte is the move id. The first byte is information about the move. I figured out:
bit 0 ??
bit 1 ??
bit 2 ??
bit 3 ??
bit 4 - move is special
bit 5 - move is finisher
bit 6 - sound 1
bit 7 - sound 2
I need some help deciphering the first 4 bits. Any advice? Here's what the move list looks like on a default CAW:
And here's Steve Austin from the save:
Any advice?
The second byte is the move id. The first byte is information about the move. I figured out:
bit 0 ??
bit 1 ??
bit 2 ??
bit 3 ??
bit 4 - move is special
bit 5 - move is finisher
bit 6 - sound 1
bit 7 - sound 2
I need some help deciphering the first 4 bits. Any advice? Here's what the move list looks like on a default CAW:
Code:
Move1: 0x0 0x1
Move2: 0x0 0x1f
Move3: 0x0 0x6f
Move4: 0x0 0x54
Move5: 0x1 0x38
Move6: 0x1 0x64
Move7: 0x1 0xda
Move8: 0x2 0x8
Move9: 0x2 0xb7
Move10: 0x2 0xdf
Move11: 0x3 0xf
Move12: 0x0 0x0
Move13: 0x3 0x43
Move14: 0x3 0x1d
Move15: 0x0 0x0
Move16: 0x0 0x0
Move17: 0x4 0x4d
Move18: 0x3 0x93
Move19: 0x3 0xaa
Move20: 0x3 0xaf
Move21: 0x3 0xcb
Move22: 0x3 0xdb
Move23: 0x3 0xe8
Move24: 0x3 0xf9
Move25: 0x4 0x12
Move26: 0x4 0x19
Move27: 0x4 0x76
Move28: 0x4 0x5a
Move29: 0x4 0x3b
Move30: 0x4 0xfa
Move31: 0x4 0xff
Move32: 0x5 0x17
Move33: 0x5 0xa
Move34: 0x5 0x1e
Move35: 0x5 0x20
Move36: 0x5 0x6d
Move37: 0x5 0x71
Move38: 0x5 0xf2
Move39: 0x6 0x15
Move40: 0x6 0x62
Move41: 0x6 0xe6
Move42: 0x5 0xa0
Move43: 0x6 0x25
Move44: 0x6 0x6c
Move45: 0x6 0xb1
Move46: 0x6 0xee
Move47: 0x7 0xf
Move48: 0x7 0x11
Move49: 0x7 0x92
Move50: 0x7 0x91
Move51: 0x8 0xe
Move52: 0x8 0x32
Move53: 0x8 0x1d
Move54: 0x8 0x3b
Move55: 0x8 0x29
Move56: 0x8 0x46And here's Steve Austin from the save:
Code:
===Moves===
Move1: 0x0 0x1
Move2: 0x0 0x46
Move3: 0x0 0xc9
Move4: 0x0 0x6f
Move5: 0x1 0x76
Move6: 0x1 0x64
Move7: 0x1 0xd2
Move8: 0x1 0xd8
Move9: 0x2 0xbb
Move10: 0x0 0x0
Move11: 0x3 0xf
Move12: 0x0 0x0
Move13: 0x3 0x21
Move14: 0x3 0x61
Move15: 0x3 0x43
Move16: 0x3 0x47
Move17: 0x3 0xbd
Move18: 0x3 0xab
Move19: 0x3 0xaf
Move20: 0x3 0xa7
Move21: 0x3 0xd0
Move22: 0x3 0xdd
Move23: 0x3 0xf5
Move24: 0x14 0x9a
- specialty
Move25: 0x44 0xd2
- sound1
Move26: 0x14 0x54
- specialty
Move27: 0x24 0x25
- finisher
Move28: 0x4 0x58
Move29: 0x4 0xdf
Move30: 0x4 0xf2
Move31: 0x5 0x2
Move32: 0x5 0x12
Move33: 0x44 0xf6
- sound1
Move34: 0x5 0x5f
Move35: 0x5 0x19
Move36: 0x5 0x6d
Move37: 0x5 0x76
Move38: 0x5 0xa1
Move39: 0x6 0xe
Move40: 0x6 0xa4
Move41: 0x6 0xbf
Move42: 0x15 0xb3
- specialty
Move43: 0x6 0x3c
Move44: 0x6 0x6e
Move45: 0x6 0xd4
Move46: 0x6 0xef
Move47: 0x87 0xf
- sound2
Move48: 0x17 0x3b
- specialty
Move49: 0x7 0x9f
Move50: 0x88 0x8
- sound2
Move51: 0x8 0xe
Move52: 0x8 0x32
Move53: 0x8 0x1d
Move54: 0x8 0x3b
Move55: 0x8 0x27
Move56: 0x8 0x46
Finisher: Ｓｔｏｎｅ ＣｏｌｄAny advice?
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no idea off hand, but i do have news. i found my save from my rename project last year. it's about 85% renamed, further than i got with the spreadsheet while i was waiting for some answers back about certain wrestlers in AJPW.
i started a new save and will do the rename exactly the same as the previous one, only i won't unlock anything on the new one. when i'm done we should have 2 saves where the only differences are one fully renamed and unlocked versus one that is fully renamed but not unlocked.
i've also rebuilt 2 edits so far, was going to do 1 or 2 more tonight. depending on timing, we might be able to meet up on discord and do some realtime save data manipulation.
i started a new save and will do the rename exactly the same as the previous one, only i won't unlock anything on the new one. when i'm done we should have 2 saves where the only differences are one fully renamed and unlocked versus one that is fully renamed but not unlocked.
i've also rebuilt 2 edits so far, was going to do 1 or 2 more tonight. depending on timing, we might be able to meet up on discord and do some realtime save data manipulation.
slinga
Established Member
I think all I have left to RE is the LOGIC section in the CAW. That looks like a real PITA. Otherwise I think I have the whole structure. Just need to figure out how certain things are encoded.
@malenko : When you delete a wrestler who has a belt (I can't read Japanese, I think that's what the error is saying), the YES/NO boxes don't line up.
@malenko : When you delete a wrestler who has a belt (I can't read Japanese, I think that's what the error is saying), the YES/NO boxes don't line up.
